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Thread: Global Warming - We could be in big trouble...

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    Global Warming - We could be in big trouble...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/climatewarmingarctic

    European scientists voiced shock as they showed pictures which showed Arctic ice cover had disappeared so much last month that a ship could sail unhindered from Europe's most northerly outpost to the North Pole itself.
    Click to learn more...

    The satellite images were acquired from August 23 to 25 by instruments aboard Envisat and EOS Aqua, two satellites operated by the European Space Agency (ESA).

    Perennial sea ice -- thick ice that is normally present year-round and is not affected by the Arctic summer -- had disappeared over an area bigger than the British Isles, ESA said.

    Vast patches of ice-free sea stretched north of Svalbard, an archipelago lying midway between Norway and the North Ple, and extended deep into the Russian Arctic, all the way to the North Pole, the agency said in a press release.

    "This situation is unlike anything observed in previous record low-ice seasons," said Mark Drinkwater of ESA's Oceans/Ice Unit.
    If the ice in the north pole melts, we are in serious doodoo. Serious doodoo.
    "All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks

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    It's bad news for polar bears:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...938132,00.html

    and bad for penguins in the south pole. on the 'march of the penguins' DVD there's a documentary about big chunks of the south pole breaking off and wiping out colonies of penguins because they get trapped.
    Last edited by joshwa; 21-09-2006 at 10:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBeeeenster View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/climatewarmingarctic


    If the ice in the north pole melts, we are in serious doodoo. Serious doodoo.
    Not really. That article there mentions that sea ice does not affect sea levels as it displaces its own weight in water.
    However, the British Antartic Survey's position on Global warming is that land ice will INCREASE as Global temperatures rise (to a point) that in turn will reduce sea levels. They attribute this to warming increasing evaporation from teh sea causing more snow to fall on antartica.
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    Does he need a reason? Funkstar's Avatar
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    There are so many factors that influence our climate and weather patters that no-one really know what is going on. I've seen a couple of interesting documentaries about this over the last couple of years.

    All the climate, sea level and weather paterns are based on computer models. these models are very complex but only contain a tiny, tiny fraction of the true complexity of the real climate/weather system. there is also a lot of guess work in there too, there are things we simply don't know. There are probably things we don't know that we don't know (if you get my meaning). All these factors can make the computer models vastly inacurate. leading to incorrect assumptions about how we will be effected in the future.

    Don't get me wrong, i really worry about the environment and i do everything i can to reduce my carbon foot print, the amount of waste i generate etc. Yes our climate is changing, and yes it is probably our own fault. But the dramatic predictions made by "leading scientists" are alarmist and extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkstar View Post
    There are so many factors that influence our climate and weather patters that no-one really know what is going on. I've seen a couple of interesting documentaries about this over the last couple of years.

    All the climate, sea level and weather paterns are based on computer models. these models are very complex but only contain a tiny, tiny fraction of the true complexity of the real climate/weather system. there is also a lot of guess work in there too, there are things we simply don't know. There are probably things we don't know that we don't know (if you get my meaning). All these factors can make the computer models vastly inacurate. leading to incorrect assumptions about how we will be effected in the future.

    Don't get me wrong, i really worry about the environment and i do everything i can to reduce my carbon foot print, the amount of waste i generate etc. Yes our climate is changing, and yes it is probably our own fault. But the dramatic predictions made by "leading scientists" are alarmist and extreme.
    Nail on the head there!
    Just out of curiosity, do you use air travel?
    If so everything else pails into insignificance after that.
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    Does he need a reason? Funkstar's Avatar
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    I do use air travel... *a lot*! but then i have to for my job, no getting round that. and i probably use the one of the worst kinds of air travel too... choppers you can't land a plane on an oil platform.

    Something i read the other day that surprised me though. With all the talk of air travel being ahuge polluter, things need to be put into perspective. Yes a 747 uses a lot of fuel, but with 500 people aboard it uses less fuel per mile per person than a 1L Fiesta. and if you want trully horrific fuel consumption then read up on the Space Shuttle. an Olympic sized swimming pool every ten second!!

    (Jerremy Clarkson - You got soul)

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    Quote Originally Posted by badass View Post
    Not really. That article there mentions that sea ice does not affect sea levels as it displaces its own weight in water.
    However, the British Antartic Survey's position on Global warming is that land ice will INCREASE as Global temperatures rise (to a point) that in turn will reduce sea levels. They attribute this to warming increasing evaporation from teh sea causing more snow to fall on antartica.
    The problem is that the snow and ice reflect the sun's energy back out to space. The sea doesn't.
    "All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkstar View Post
    I do use air travel... *a lot*! but then i have to for my job, no getting round that. and i probably use the one of the worst kinds of air travel too... choppers you can't land a plane on an oil platform.

    Something i read the other day that surprised me though. With all the talk of air travel being ahuge polluter, things need to be put into perspective. Yes a 747 uses a lot of fuel, but with 500 people aboard it uses less fuel per mile per person than a 1L Fiesta. and if you want trully horrific fuel consumption then read up on the Space Shuttle. an Olympic sized swimming pool every ten second!!

    (Jerremy Clarkson - You got soul)
    LOL not quite!
    PER PERSON a 747 dumps more CO2 into the atmosphere in one trip to the states than an average 4x4 does in a YEAR!!!!
    A 747 Spends approximately £60,000 in fuel to get across the atlantic. Bare in mind the tax on aviation fuel is a lot lower than petrol.
    Last edited by badass; 22-09-2006 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Badly worded response and appaling spelling!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBeeeenster View Post
    The problem is that the snow and ice reflect the sun's energy back out to space. The sea doesn't.
    And what will happen then?
    The truthfull answer is you dont know. None of us do. Not even scientists that pretend or even believe they do.
    the extra warmth could trigger a huge increase in evaporation frome the seas worldwide covering a lot more of the world in clouds reflecting more heat back into space, evening things out, but in the process causing enough extra rainfall to reverse desertification in many of the worlds deserts.

    Or maybe it could trigger some other climatic system we have not seen before that means it only rains in the whole of the British isles late at night during the week leaving the qweekends cloudless

    You can hardly say we are in deep doodoo when you dont know.
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    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkstar View Post
    and if you want trully horrific fuel consumption then read up on the Space Shuttle. an Olympic sized swimming pool every ten second!!
    Right, I may have got the wrong idea about the size of the space shuttle and its big fuel tank and two auxilliary boosters, but I thought they were a bit smaller than an olympic standard swimming pool? The tank apparently contains 530,000 gallons of fuel- and a minimum spec olympic swimming pool contains 2,500,000 litres of water- around 550,000 gallons by my rough calculations. The tank is discarded after 8.5 minutes. Hardly an Olympic swimming pool every 10 seconds is it?

    I don't deny that space vehicles on an individual basis produce an order of maginitude more pollution than any other form of transport, but overall they're a drop in the ocean. I reckon even during the tank's 8.5 minute burn time, per second the thousands of jet aircraft flying around at any given moment are burning more fuel than it is.

    I really ought to make the time to go and see An Inconvenient Truth. I'd like to see whether Gore's claims pass the scrutiny of someone with a moderate science education. I reckon one should see these 'big' documentaries- even though Fahrenheit 9/11 turned out to be a crock of ****, I didn't begrudge the £6.25 my ticket cost me.

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    Well if anyone else can figure a way of crossing vast distance fast, without burning fuel, I'd like to hear it, and so would quite a few others.

    Well if it any consolation give 50-100 years and we'll all stop burning fossil fuel

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    Quote Originally Posted by badass View Post
    LOL not quite!
    PER PERSON a 747 dumps more CO2 into the atmosphere in one trip to the states than an average 4x4 does in a YEAR!!!!
    A 747 Spends approximately £60,000 in fuel to get across the atlantic. Bare in mind the tax on aviation fuel is a lot lower than petrol.
    That's not a very good analogy. Better to compare the fuel consumption per mile per passenger carried then work out the CO2 produced for that mile.

    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=48121 is pretty good.

    There are an awful lot of factors when trying to determine the answer. So sometimes you will find the plane is more efficent than the car and vice versa.

    I did a few "back of the fag packet" calculations and the aircraft seemed to be roughly twice as bad as the car for CO2 emissions per mile per passenger but that was assuming that the aircraft had 416 passengers (747 3 classs config) and the car had 4 people in at all times and the car had a fuel efficiency of 40 miles per gallon.

    Then again you have to take into account cargo because the aircraft transports not only passengers and their bags but all sorts of produce and how many times does a car carry 4 people? Flights are as full as possible usually otherwise it's not economic, etc etc. It's tough one.

    I stumbled across this http://www.terrapass.com/flight/flightcalc.html and was quite shocked to see the results. Compare transatlantic flight to a ford focus.

    One thing is certain. Aircraft operators want their fuel costs to be as small as possible. This means that aircraft manufacturers and more importantly engine manufacturers are continually producing fuel efficiency improvements. An increase of 1% fuel efficiency can save 80,000 gallons of fuel per aircraft per year. Jet-A is about $3.20 -$4.20 per gallon - so that would be over 1/4 of a million dollars per aircraft per year saving. Boeing's "dreamliner" project is aiming for very significant savings as is the Airbus A380.

    http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aer...gy/working.jsp

    http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/genx/index.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by iranu View Post
    That's not a very good analogy. Better to compare the fuel consumption per mile per passenger carried then work out the CO2 produced for that mile.
    True, its not a good anology in that respect but its pretty usefull in pointing out to these moronic anti 4x4 campaigners (that jet off to somewhere sunny every year) that they are getting all worked up over something thats a drop in the ocean.
    If you want to reduce man made emissions of "nasty" gasses, instead of campaigning against something that represents a small percentage of a small percentage of manmade greenhouse gas emissions IIRC cars represent 2% of manmade greenhouse gas emissions. Why bother getting so het up over a tiny part of 2% of the problem? Talk about these idiots missing the point entirely.
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    G4Z
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    Quote Originally Posted by badass View Post
    True, its not a good anology in that respect but its pretty usefull in pointing out to these moronic anti 4x4 campaigners (that jet off to somewhere sunny every year) that they are getting all worked up over something thats a drop in the ocean.
    If you want to reduce man made emissions of "nasty" gasses, instead of campaigning against something that represents a small percentage of a small percentage of manmade greenhouse gas emissions IIRC cars represent 2% of manmade greenhouse gas emissions. Why bother getting so het up over a tiny part of 2% of the problem? Talk about these idiots missing the point entirely.

    Moronic? I am sorry but I have the firmly held view that if you choose to drive something that has pathetic fuel effiency and doesnt fit on UK roads then you are a moron. If you advocate using a reasonable car that is more efficient or actualy walking *gasp* your kids to school on a morning then I think that makes you a reasonable person. Do not even think of calling me on these assumptions unless you can tell me how you know that "anti 4x4" campaigners jet off every year and are idiots. Also please back up your figure of 2% as the frist atricle I found on google says that cars account for nearly 20% of all carbon emissions.

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/carbo...511925,00.html

    "It is believed motor vehicles contribute between 14 to 17 per cent of the world's total carbon dioxide emissions, a figure that is to increase substantially in the coming years. By 2025, it is expected there will be one billion vehicles discharging as much as 1,800 million tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere every year - the equivalent of almost a third of the 6,000 million tonnes of carbon emissions from all sources today."

    You sir, are a moron.
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    G4Z
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    I will add that I am not defending air travel, I do not use it often although I am flying to Spain on Monday

    I think any reasonable person looking at this issue would conclude that emissions must be cut across the board and if that means people giving up their Porche Cheyyene's for a 1 litre Micra and aviation fuel being taxed then so be it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G4Z View Post
    Moronic? I am sorry but I have the firmly held view that if you choose to drive something that has pathetic fuel effiency and doesnt fit on UK roads then you are a moron.
    What are your reasons for this? Also, if a vehicle doesn't fit on UK roads it cant be driven here. What a moronic statement
    If you advocate using a reasonable car that is more efficient or actualy walking *gasp* your kids to school on a morning then I think that makes you a reasonable person.
    So someone that buys a nice diesel Volkswagen Golf and mows down 35 people on the way to school because they are drunk is a reasonable person.
    How stupid a statement to make.
    Do not even think of calling me on these assumptions unless you can tell me how you know that "anti 4x4" campaigners jet off every year and are idiots.
    I've met a few and they were all idiots
    [quote]Also please back up your figure of 2% as the frist atricle I found on google says that cars account for nearly 20% of all carbon emissions.
    My mistake. I cant be arsed to get all of the info and figures here but initial figures suggest that around half of that is lorries (that incidentally cause 20% of road deaths whilst representing only 7% of road traffic)
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/carbo...511925,00.html

    "It is believed motor vehicles contribute between 14 to 17 per cent of the world's total carbon dioxide emissions, a figure that is to increase substantially in the coming years. By 2025, it is expected there will be one billion vehicles discharging as much as 1,800 million tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere every year - the equivalent of almost a third of the 6,000 million tonnes of carbon emissions from all sources today."
    No sources quoted in that article. Being the guardian its most likely a load of rubbish. Or is the source "what is believed"
    Mind you, I have a source here that says your statement that cars account for nearly 20% is complete rubbish.
    http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
    3.298% of greenhouse gasses are manmade and they represent 0.28% of the greenhouse effect.
    Of that 3.298%, less than 20% is due to motor VEHICLES. You do know there is a difference in the meaning between the word vehicle and car dont you?
    Of that 20%, approximately 2/3rds is caused by cars assuming an average fuel efficiency of 35MPG on a car. (DFT quotes an average 7MPG for lorries 15 tonnes and I have used that to represent all lorries)
    Of that percentage that is cars, a fraction of that is SUV's
    Perhaps you had better find something more important to get all fired up and very rude about, and leave everyone else to get onwith their business.
    You sir, are a moron.
    Well done.
    Last edited by badass; 25-09-2006 at 11:50 PM.
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