Can I just second a Fractal Design case. The Define Mini C (mATX) I've just worked in has been a joy to use. Thermaltake H18 (mATX) is also a solid choice - high build quality, easy to work in, good airflow, but would need an extermal DVD drive. Personally I thing an external drive is the way to go, as if you're going to be transferring 1000's of CD/DVD's worth of data, you can place it in a comfortable position on your desk.
Saracen999 (06-07-2021)
They do, and the performance hit of CL22 isn't noticeable though if I tried I could probably measure it. I'm running this stuff:Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH
https://www.kingstonmemoryshop.co.uk...emory-ram-dimm
and I have seen a memory event reported by Linux (if there were any in Windows, then they get silently fixed so I wouldn't know).
But this machine helps me pay my mortgage, and most people don't care about such correctness levels.
Saracen999 (06-07-2021)
The price is actually not that bad!! In my case I do run the IMC past spec,ie,3600MHZ but I won't overclock the CPU core and RAM itself.
Saracen999 (06-07-2021)
Have you considered either the Fractal define 7 or XL case?
Deo Adjuvante non Timendum
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
I have a spare GPU you can have. It's a cutting edge gtx460 1GB. At today's prices that's worth what? £500. But I'll do it for say £300?
No seriously...
Case: Budget, with decent 5.25 provision are the bitfenix Shinobi and (if you need bigger, and get lucky on ebay) Shinobi XL. Snagged one of the XL on ebay for £35 not too long ago. 5x 5.25" bays. Luxury. They are easy to build in and relatively quiet (with the right fans in them). And no silly front door to faff around with - though possibly a bit more noise as a result. That said I am currently running mine without the front panel on which reminds me to dig it out the box and fit it!
CPU any 5000 series AMD or 3000 series 3900x/3950x if you get a good deal on one. I wouldn't go for less than 3900x as the lower 5000 series are a good bit quicker (20% IIRC) according to the recent comparisons we did on cinebench (see the cinebench QOTW thread from a few months back).
Mobo, just get Gigabyte x570 Aorus Master (unless the x570s versions come out). Best spec of features of any x570 board, AND you can get a waterblock for the chipset (to remove the fan) which auto-wins vs MSIs x570 ACE which is a close equivalent but for all the following:
- Gigabyte has slightly better VRM cooling
- Gigabyte has no heatpipe to the chipset from the VRM - which so far as I can tell just transfers heat from the VRM to the chipset in my ACE which is v annoying.
- Gigabyte has two full size nvme slots and one 2280, compared to 1 and 2 respectively on the ACE
- ACE has one native ps2 to gigabyte/s none, but gigabyte has extra usb 2 which will be more useful in the long run.
- Anecdotal online ACE has worse BIOS UEFI in terms of layout and navigation if nothing else
- ACE wastes board space on an overclocking dial you and I will never use
- Gigabyte has two extra sata ports, though these deactivate if you populate all 3 NVme
- Gigabyte has a thunderbolt header (in latest revisions)
- ACE has two pcix1 slots but you can only use one at a time, and you can't bios switch them, one will always take precedent over the other, so there is not much point having this, save for a slight flexibility in where you position your card.
- Msi fan sits slightly lower down so less obstructed by the GPU, BUT you can't change it for a waterblock because the fan shroud is the seat for the nvme cooler covers and it has the heatpipe running into it. It looks like the heatpipe is a push / press clip fit but I haven't had the balls to try removing it, and without an available EKWB block there's no point anyway. Annoyingly the screws are a different spacing to the Gigabyte so it's not simply a case of trying your luck, it will not fit.
- Gigabyte has an extra metal backplate for better cooling, but more weight
- Gigabyte Master allows you to install all 9 mobo screws instead of 8 on the msi ACE with the middle one blocked by that stupid chipset fan shroud.
The only major downside (and it's rather minor) to the Master vs the ACE is that thing of needing a separate ps2 card for the gigabyte if you want to install win7 from the native DVD. Both will run win7 just fine with the right driver pack PM me for more details. The ACE has on board ps2 combo port (though it didn't work with a cheap ps2 splitter that I tried, only direct to a mouse or keyboard. I think this is the fault of the splitter but I don't have another to compare it to). I found win7 quite happy to install on the ACE and detected the ps2 ports via my pciex1 card just as well as the native ps2 port.
Oh and the ACE is listed to have slightly faster RAM max speed - but only 4600 (vs 4444 I think), which is well outside of where I'm running it at anyway.
All things considered I wish I'd paid more for the Master. A lot of buyers remorse over that £70 saving when the Master went on sale for just a £20 delta one month later.
All the other x570 boards were worse off in terms of combo of sata, pci and nvme that they would handle. Either lacking certain slots altogether or looking good at first, but then deactivating pcix16 or pcix4 when sata plugged in, or deactivating nvme if pciex16 slot used etc.
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
In terms of the VRM and VRM cooling,the MSI X570 Tomahawk is a better motherboard than the MSI X570 ACE,ironically enough.
It has 6 SATA3.0 ports,and seems far better value than the higher end MSI X570 motherboards:
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-.../Specification
The main advantage I can see of the Gigabyte Aorus Master is probably the fact it has both Intel and Realtek NICs,and the extra M2 SSD slot. However,unlike the higher end X570 motherboards there is far less shrouding over the VRM heatsinks which means there is less potential issues with an air cooler clashing with the shroud.
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
CPU air cooler fine on my x570 ACE, no clashes. Cooling performance is not ideal however - in that I'd want better, and the MAster, Unify and as you say, Tomahawk do better in that regard. The Unify and Tomahawk lose some flexibility and drop things like reinforced ram and Pcie slots etc. Plus I'm not thrilled with the MSI uefi and insistence on using the app store to get basic sound drivers installed etc. Their DVD driver set should have everything to get you up and running without a net connection IMO. At the very least they should advertise clearly if that is not the case.In terms of the VRM and VRM cooling,the MSI X570 Tomahawk is a better motherboard than the MSI X570 ACE,ironically enough.
It has 6 SATA3.0 ports,and seems far better value than the higher end MSI X570 motherboards:
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-.../Specification
The main advantage I can see of the Gigabyte Aorus Master is probably the fact it has both Intel and Realtek NICs,and the extra M2 SSD slot. However,unlike the higher end X570 motherboards there is far less shrouding over the VRM heatsinks which means there is less potential issues with an air cooler clashing with the shroud.
If they release an X570s version of the Aorus Master I'm splashing the cash. With GPU prices what they are my GPU fund can dwindle for the short term. It will make no practical difference.
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
You can download the drivers with out registering?? I just checked:
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/supp...ver&Win10%2064
Personally I wouldn't waste your money on a new X570 motherboard. We don't know if AMD might launch new chipsets,especially with the special variants of the Ryzen 9 CPUs with the extra L3 cache. If an X670 comes along in 6 months time,you might regret it!
I do wish we knew a specific date when these were being released - hence why I didn't suggest Saracen to wait!
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
nope.I thought that too but click through (for the ACE here) and you'll see the realtek audio driver and then the nahimic guff require the windows store. I don't care too much for nahimic, but you can't get the realtek audio manager, or any of their (quite reasonable IMO) surround sound control without going through the windows store. And even then they try to force the nahimic garbage. Going direct to realtek just says "you need to install a different driver for this product" and refuses to install the older (IMO nicer/better) drivers. I'm stuck on the basic native windows sound manager. It's awful by comparison to my old 2010 win7 with realtek audio manager etc.
Last edited by ik9000; 07-07-2021 at 01:25 PM.
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
ah but I do know that X570s will run win7, in no small part thanks to the back-compatibility to 2700 series etc helping people figure out how to mod the drivers. X670 might not be as accommodating.
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
Well Reatek has issues with Windows 10 breaking the driver. Had updates which lead with me no sound,or another one where games like Grim Dawn got broken. This is because the update screwed around with the Realtek drivers,and you ended up with some weirdness were the driver broke and taxed a single core so much,the game would run at under 30FPS.
I also can't install the native Realtek drivers either,so need the Asus ROG suite.
With my Asus motherboard it installs the Asus ROG suite which ends up burying certain settings. In the last year or sound,MS screwed around with how to access audio settings,so that made things more difficult.
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
A note on the networking...
2.5GbE is quite an expensive option on a motherboard, and limits what you can get.
A card is £32 delivered and only takes a x1 slot ...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/2-5GBase-T-...dp/B07Y2GWVB8/
Or you can get an Asus one that goes up to 10GbE for £85
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-XG-C10...dp/B071JR2ZW8/
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
the master and ACE both have 2.5GB realtek and 1GB intel (twin RJ45 sockets) no need for a card.
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
Can I just say at this point that the contents of this thread are a great example of exactly why this community is so damned good.
Even the ping-pong on mobo spec's is superb. Different views give me exactly the kind of perspective to fill in much of the hole where my motherboard knowledge used to be, and to decide which best matches my needs because, much like buying a house, you almost always have to compromise on something, unless you double your budget, and even then, your perfect house may not even exist.
But the generosity in the time you guys put in to helping is truly appreciated.
I've skimmed the last fews posts, but it's going to take a more careful read, and some spec-studying to put that in context, and let it sink in, and let my priorities brew through.
On that specifically, 10GbE is appealing but it would be much more expensive and mean upgrading my entire network infrastructure to fully benefit, including upgrading the NAS (that I intend getting) which comes with 2.5GbE, and the extra problems of upgrading cabling, etc.
Sure, in an ideal world I'd do that but, given that it's home usage and no business benefit any longer, I think it falls into a step too far.
As for onboard mobo versus card, it's neater to go onboard which would be my choice provided it's not silly expensive to get a board that otherwise meets my needs, and I utterly agree it seriously narrows options. So if the board is not too much more expensive than might be otherwise justified I'd go built-in, but I'm not willing to throw silly money just over built-in, versus card slot.
Put it this way. £150-ish for the mobo? Fine. £250-£300? Okay .... provided it's worth it. Much above that is going to take some very good reasons.
If this whole thing costs me, oh I dunno, £2k +/- a few hundred, then I'm not that bothered by a hundred or so here and there. I'd rather get it right, indulge a bit with what I want rather than just need, than cheap out.
But there's a limit to that pointless indulgence. If I don't keep an eye overall, I know it's easy to add a bit here, a bit there and end up miles away from what you intended. I once did that with a car. Started out test-driving an £8k second-hand Jag, got seduced into a £100k+ Aston Martin (test), came to my senses and ended up with a new M3 .... which was still a hell of a leap from that £8k Jag.
I learned from that. First, set a realistic budget both with an eye on what I really am prepared to spend, and what I really want. Second, be prepared to indulge a bit. Third, stay out of Aston showrooms. I so, so nearly .....(see note 1)
So, I will spend on a really good mobo if there's a good reason, but not for fancy bells and whistles that seem more appealling than they actually are. And I won't pay for 'gaming' features unless they will be very useful to my non-gaming needs. If I end up with a good gaming system, fine, and I might indulge myself a bit in gaming but it is a very long way down my priority list.
Also, I don't mind buying higher-end items when there really is a point, but I'm not looking for spending more than I need to just for the sake of it. I can indulge in this, and maybe that, but not in everything. Final cost is variable, but when I find out what the total bill is, I might gulp, and decide a trim a few indulgent up-spec items.
Note 1) Even the Aston showroom paled into insignificance when I was passing Maranello's (Surrey) one day and popped in "for a quick look".
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
No need until you want 10GbE, and those are *really* expensive motherboards.
You can get B550 motherboards with 2.5GbE quite cheap (around the £140 mark), but even there is it worth it vs the flexability of a £100 B550 board and a cheap card?
Edit: I really paused before hitting that post button didn't I, given the size of Saracens post that popped in between
Saracen999 (07-07-2021)
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