Fairly high-end PC spec ....

[ik9000]

No need until you want 10GbE, and those are *really* expensive motherboards.

You can get B550 motherboards with 2.5GbE quite cheap (around the £140 mark), but even there is it worth it vs the flexability of a £100 B550 board and a cheap card?

Edit: I really paused before hitting that post button didn't I, given the size of Saracens post that popped in between

I hear you, but when I've looked into mobo specs, and Saracen's brief is similar to my own: max flexibility and future proof, decent NVMe, pcie4.0 etc then I found the X570 to offer more than B550.

On those higher x570 boards I mentioned you get three NVMe at full pci4.0 speeds, while still being able to use PCIe4.0x16 (at x16 or 2x8) PCIe4.0x1 and PCIe4.0x16(at x4) and 4(or6) sata III ports. For future proof and flexibility that ticked my box.

A pcie3.0x4 card can provide 4 full speed sataIII ports simultaneously, and a pcie4x4card (once they come out) would double that to 8 additional sata III (6Gbps) ports.

So currently he can have 6 on board sata, for all those HDD and 5.25" writers, drive bay hotswap docks, etc, with another 4 sata from a pcie card, AND two NVMe and still have a PCIex1 card for whatever, and a gpu going full tilt at pcie4.0x16. I haven't found a B550 board nearly as flexible. In the future he can add another NVMe and he just loses 2 sata ports.

The boards have wifi6ax, 2.5GB and 1GB so plenty of network capacity inherently.

Expensive? yes, but they seem to best fit his brief to me, as it is very similar to my own brief. 2 DVD RW drives (one to swap to BDRW soon) two hot swap bays offering 2.5 and 3.5 bays, and a controller panel to power/depower a bank of HDD and SSD internally depending on what I want which OS to see at any given time. All of that needs a lot of SATA connectors in addition to the main NVMe OS and working drives.

edit the AM is currently £276 on the river site so a jolly site cheaper than I've ever seen it when I was shopping. I think I paid £309 for my ACE. Were I not quite so cash strapped atm I would buy that and just swap my ACE out.

[Saracen999]

....

Edit: I really paused before hitting that post button didn't I, given the size of Saracens post that popped in between

You want longer? I am sure it could be arranged. I'll just forego my usual forum brevity.

[Saracen999]

For my part, I entirely get the X570 (higher spec, but higher price) versus B550 (hits all my highpoints, and cheaper, but yet, less specified).

That is exactly I've spent the last couple of hours, including with Scan's "compare" tool.

The £300 (-ish) boards certainly give more. But some of it, like SLI/Crossfire and, especially, fancypants RGB lighting) don't matter to me. Which points me at the cheaper boards but some other features (more SATA, extra M.2 ports, more USB 3.2 ports) do hit that "future-proof" point. I probably don't need loads of SATA ports now, or 3 M.2 now but given I may never upgrade again, it's not a bad idea to over-specify at this stage. The worst that can happen is I waste a bit of money on stuff I end up not needing.

Hence my point above. If the final bill comes out just too much, I can then decide where to trim. Maybe less memory (if I pick carefully, I can always add more sticks) or, substitute B550 for X570. Or maybe, use a slower NVMe now, and upgrade later, moving the slower one into the NAS.

Which way willI go on mobo? Dunno yet. I'm inclined to the X570 with all the doodads 9looking at Gigabyte, Asus, MSI etc) but it all depends how big my gasp is when I see the final bill. I still want that Canon R6.

What I'm not wanting to do is buy a major component (like GPU) now, with a view to upgrading because I loathe the faff of selling stuff. Which is largely why I still have about 10 repurposed PCs driving old gear. And that is about to change. Their ranks are due a major thinning down.

[ik9000]

if you haven't been shown it already check out this google sheet comparison. Note the advice on how to apply filters, it then becomes v useful.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...vid=1925177101

oh and I got mine for future proof and was all "I don't need NVMe, Sata SSD is fine enough" but then I picked up a small NVMe in a flash sale to see what it was like. Big mistake. If you buy NVMe (and IMO you really really should) then get as big as you can as 1) they have better mem cache/ buffers and 2) you will quickly want to do everything on them. They are sooooo fast. The limit is transferring things to them, but once there. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee it's fast. So snappy. Well worth it for me, where I do so much on the PC. It's not SSD vs HDD but it is noticeable and I can't wait to get the NAS up and running and see how well it does over 2.5GB connection to the NVMe when it comes time to upload the photo dump to the NAS (which will also get an NVMe for caching once I can afford another one).

[Saracen999]

Have you considered either the Fractal define 7 or XL case?

Not yet, but I do like Fractal's cases. I have one here and depending on mobo chosen and final spec it might even do.

But so far, I haven't got to case choice, not lest because the mobo, GPU etc I select will determine the parameters for case. Suggestions are noted. Thanks.

[Saracen999]

ah but I do know that X570s will run win7, in no small part thanks to the back-compatibility to 2700 series etc helping people figure out how to mod the drivers. X670 might not be as accommodating.

I should point out, this system will most likely start out as Win10. At least, until end of support. At that point, it'll be either :-

- Win11, depending on what I think of it when spec and requirements are finalised. Currently, it's too unclear for me to hazard a guess as to what I'll decide on that. Or ...

- Stay W10 and go behind the air-gap. I don't actually need this system on the net, or won't, by then. Or ...

- Stick Linux on it, especially as I should be done with digitising duty by 2025 .... I hope to hell.

[kompukare]

If you're comparing things, don't forget to use sites like
skinflint.co.uk
(AKa geizhals.at, they love Bestenlisten in German speaking countries), as they've done a lot of the grunt work already with their filters and most products have direct link to the manufacturer's sites.
For instance this is AM4, 6 SATA, 2.5G LAN, x570 or b550:
https://skinflint.co.uk/?cat=mbam4&x...=t&hloc=uk&v=e

[ik9000]

I should point out, this system will most likely start out as Win10. At least, until end of support. At that point, it'll be either :-

- Win11, depending on what I think of it when spec and requirements are finalised. Currently, it's too unclear for me to hazard a guess as to what I'll decide on that. Or ...

- Stay W10 and go behind the air-gap. I don't actually need this system on the net, or won't, by then. Or ...

- Stick Linux on it, especially as I should be done with digitising duty by 2025 .... I hope to hell.

oh quite, but I like knowing that I can revert to win7 on the box for certain softwares and legacy games etc where I haven't yet nobbled off the cacky DRM to allow me to play the game I already own on win10 (for example) without suffering a large performance drop etc. Plus for when me and mrsik9000 want to play together it gives me a 2nd win7 machine to do so on (we play really oollld stuff) which just seems to make it that bit smoother.

[Saracen999]

Good points.

I will expect MrsSaracen to start computer gaming right after I discover a pile of rocking horse poop that I found using a unicorn-horn detector rod, and we complete the purchase of our new home in Never-Never Land.

If then.

But I take your points.

[Saracen999]

.... when it comes time to upload the photo dump to the NAS (which will also get an NVMe for caching once I can afford another one).

At the risk of the grandma and sucking eggs thing, if you want them as direct storage rather than caching, be careful of the choice of NAS brand. Unless it's changed, QNAP and Asustor allow that, but Synology do caching only, at least on the lower J4125-based ones.

[ik9000]

At the risk of the grandma and sucking eggs thing, if you want them as direct storage rather than caching, be careful of the choice of NAS brand. Unless it's changed, QNAP and Asustor allow that, but Synology do caching only, at least on the lower J4125-based ones.

Just caching - I can't afford storage volume I need in NVMe. That is the dream, but not for a long time yet.

I still haven't decided on the NAS box. I have the drives, not the box. cash flow etc etc.

[Saracen999]

Just caching - I can't afford storage volume I need in NVMe. That is the dream, but not for a long time yet.

I still haven't decided on the NAS box. I have the drives, not the box. cash flow etc etc.

I feel your pain, ik. A decent-sized NAS is not a cheap item. My plan is, as I always have anyway, to break my data down into certain categories. Media, be it audio, photo or video, is going to be WAY to big to justify SSD storage. On the other hand, WP documents, spreadsheets, document-imaging files, genealogy stuff, etc, will all fit on a modest-sized drive, and in that class, 1TB goes a long way.

There is also a class of data, including the more personal of 'personal' that, at the very least, needs to be stored encrypted ust because it could be very damaging if hacked, like bank records. Currently, it's all behind air-gap. But it might br suitable to put either on a drive that's suitably encrypted (like my 1TB Samsung Touch T7, or even a memory stick).

That stuff doesn't really need to be accessible all the time, and (given suitable backups) I might settle for some kind of near-line option, like plug-in SSD or memory stick.

But the in-case, really fast M.2 NVMe will be mainly for boot files and program files, plus some non-sensitive data, so doesn't need to be huge. The media files will be on HD in the NAS (probably WD HC520/530 UltraStor, and I'm currently think 4x 12TB in RAID 5).

So sure, using an NVMe-only, or even SATA-SSD-only NAS is not an option for me either, but a NAS where the bulk storage is HD and a different tier is NVMe probably makes more sense given my needs than using the expensive NVMe for caching.

What I was thinking, though, was putting a couple of NVMe's in the NAS as raw storage, and therefore available to my various machines, and keeping the storage in this Pc build pretty minimal.

It comes down to whether I can structure/tier my data categories appropriately to provide me with access while still being comfortable with the level of security.

That may in part come down to whether either or both of this PC and NAS are behind my air-gap or not, and that is at least in how confident I am in my firewalling, and exposure to QLocker-type risks. And I;m not yet clear on that.

[DanceswithUnix]

The boards have wifi6ax, 2.5GB and 1GB so plenty of network capacity inherently.

See, that's the bit I struggle with.

I agree that an X570 is probably the best move, I'm typing this on my home X470-pro based machine and at work I have an X570 board because there aren't any B550 boards that could take the amount of I/O I needed to plug in on day one of getting that machine.

However, my reasoning is actually because B550 boards never have that weird front USB-C connector on them and the last few devices purchased in our house (phones, tablet, Oculus Quest 2) are all USB-C connected. Yes I do have some USB A to C cables and you don't *need* a USB C connector on the front of the PC and they all come with one around the back, but with my ageing back getting to the rear of the PC isn't fun so on any new PC a front USB C port will be right up near the top of the must have list. This X470 board did have the connector for a front C cable, though I had to buy a connector panel to go in one of the 5-1/4 in drive bays as the Antec 300 case is way too old, but I have my front C connector with a 10Gbps data rate

But networking? Well WiFi is a constantly moving target and my motherboards always outlast wifi generations by several cycles so I actively avoid motherboards with WiFi on them. There are some which have an M.2 WiFi connector on them so you can get a laptop WiFi card and upgrade the WiFi which seems a good compromise. My last WiFi upgrade cycle consisted of buying a TP link Deco pack of three mesh devices for £100 which gives me a decent coverage across the house, and those come with a pair of gigabit ports so you can plug devices into them to connect them to the wiifi network if I wanted to do that. But I have powerline, which is faster and more stable than wifi so I don't.

My point with 2.5GbE was simply that for example my work board is an Asus X570 Pro (because I needed three x16 slots and wanted ECC ram) and I think it cost £230. It doesn't have 2.5GbE, but I could add that with no stress using a £32 plug in PCIe card and still be under the cost of most boards with native 2.5GbE so if there are features I like in a board then ethernet support is right down the list because I can (and am increasingly likely to) plug it in. My wife's PC has a 2.5GbE port because I liked the rest of the features of the board, the faster ethernet was a bonus.

OFC my argument for ethernet cards could extend to a USB-C card as well. There is a cable neatness issue which is worth a few quid to me but I look at the cost of something like the Asrock Steel Legend board (which has the WiFi card connector to add your own WiFi) and you can buy a lot of cards with the savings.

[Saracen999]

See, that's the bit I struggle with.

I agree that an X570 is probably the best move, I'm typing this on my home X470-pro based machine and at work I have an X570 board because there aren't any B550 boards that could take the amount of I/O I needed to plug in on day one of getting that machine.

However, my reasoning is actually because B550 boards never have that weird front USB-C connector on them and the last few devices purchased in our house (phones, tablet, Oculus Quest 2) are all USB-C connected. Yes I do have some USB A to C cables and you don't *need* a USB C connector on the front of the PC and they all come with one around the back, but with my ageing back getting to the rear of the PC isn't fun so on any new PC a front USB C port will be right up near the top of the must have list. This X470 board did have the connector for a front C cable, though I had to buy a connector panel to go in one of the 5-1/4 in drive bays as the Antec 300 case is way too old, but I have my front C connector with a 10Gbps data rate

But networking? Well WiFi is a constantly moving target and my motherboards always outlast wifi generations by several cycles so I actively avoid motherboards with WiFi on them. There are some which have an M.2 WiFi connector on them so you can get a laptop WiFi card and upgrade the WiFi which seems a good compromise. My last WiFi upgrade cycle consisted of buying a TP link Deco pack of three mesh devices for £100 which gives me a decent coverage across the house, and those come with a pair of gigabit ports so you can plug devices into them to connect them to the wiifi network if I wanted to do that. But I have powerline, which is faster and more stable than wifi so I don't.

My point with 2.5GbE was simply that for example my work board is an Asus X570 Pro (because I needed three x16 slots and wanted ECC ram) and I think it cost £230. It doesn't have 2.5GbE, but I could add that with no stress using a £32 plug in PCIe card and still be under the cost of most boards with native 2.5GbE so if there are features I like in a board then ethernet support is right down the list because I can (and am increasingly likely to) plug it in. My wife's PC has a 2.5GbE port because I liked the rest of the features of the board, the faster ethernet was a bonus.

OFC my argument for ethernet cards could extend to a USB-C card as well. There is a cable neatness issue which is worth a few quid to me but I look at the cost of something like the Asrock Steel Legend board (which has the WiFi card connector to add your own WiFi) and you can buy a lot of cards with the savings.

I entirely agree with your logic there, but we have a horses for courses thing going on with my needs.

My intention, for various reasons, is that this system is a "last time" system. That's why I'm going a bit higher end (like in CPU) than I otherwise would. And why I'll go for NVMe 4 SSD (or two). Sure, a bit more money now, but not vast amounts and it'll hopefully remain fast enough for long enough to see me out. Which saves the inconvenience of doing this again.

I'm gearing up now for both Wifi 6 (would do 6e if it had been a bit sooner) and 2.5GB/s LAN. My upgrade process started with an Asus router that supports both, and my (currently) intended NAS supports 2.5G LAN, out of the box. Wifi6 is a card-upgrade.

I still could use 10GB/s LAN, but at considerable cost, and will need to get someone in to do cabling especially if I go fibre. While tempted, I just don't see it as justifiable.

So, I'm kinda settled on 2.5GB/s and Wifi6 as the base. Also, the fastest and most convenient USB I can reasonably get, will cover me now and for anything I'm likely to do later, even if not state of art when I do it. I'm not expecting do to much more upgrading after this. So am setting my base points fairly high, and expecting to set that as my permanent ceiling.

I also really don't want to be messing around with the internals of this system much, or indeed at all if I can help it, once built or bought, and installed. It's about using it, not playing with it ever again, if I possibly can avoid it.

So while the mobo budget isn't bottomless (I mean, grand a time boards? nah) I really don't care about whether it's £150 or £300. i will go for the one where the feature set best matches my needs. If I end up buying a couple of cables, or a control-panel, etc, so be it, provided I do it now, and it gives me what I need. Also, I'm not going to be mucking about behind it too much (my back, too, Dances) but a multi-port extension to the desktop, on a cable? Okay. I will want the ability to plug a few things in (from memory stick to a colour calibrator) but most won't require massive data transfer rates and USB-C is just easier than messing with which way up the cable is.

The difference between upper-midrange GPU at say £500 or so, and two grand to go higher is a deal-killer, but the cost difference between B550 and X570 isn't, provided I get the best board for my needs, which can be but isn't necessarily the dearer one. That is, I do care about the right feature mix but don't care about the cost difference.

[jimborae]

Not sure if it's been mentioned before but as an avid longtime water cooling fan bois I would advise not to bother with watercooling. At least not in a production, non gaming, machine that will be in longterm service. It's more hassle than it's worth, and the returns tend to be marginal these days unless you're going down a high end custom loop route. High end aircooling is that good that it will usually keep up with good AIO watercoolers with none of the downsides such as leaks, pump failures, tube routing/access, noise potential and all the backgound worries that these produce. Noctura would get my vote for a fit & forget air cooler, not cheap, but very good quality & efficient.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I went off AIO water coolers,as I use SFF PCs,and had one in my previous one. What I found once it got to around the 5 year mark,it became very noisy,and I honestly didn't trust it that much because of this. Also there have been a recent spate of AIO water coolers having various production flaws. Hence I stick to air cooling now,which has the added benefit of blowing air over the VRMs,keeping them cooler.