New Build Advice

[Bodin]

I've decided to return to the pc fold after years in console wilderness and am looking at a pc primarily for gaming, home use, photo editing and media.

I've ordered the following 3XS system from scan and I was looking for advice for tweaks. Slightly concerned his spec will be a little loud as the Mrs will be watching tv in the same room, was also wondering about a second Ssd for games with the os on the first together with any heavy duty editing software...any ideas appreciated....


System overview
System Overview

Custom Coloured Cases: *No Custom Colour Required*
Case: Corsair Obsidian Series 650D Black Mid Tower Case
Motherboard - Intel Z77 Chipset: Asus Sabertooth Z77 Intel Z77 Chipset
CPU: Intel Core i7 3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz Quad Core + Hyperthreading 8MB Cache
CPU Coolers: Corsair H100 Hydro Series Extreme Performance CPU cooler
Overclocking - CPU: Extreme Overclock - 4.6Ghz - Tuned to absolute safe maximum - Performance prioritised over acoustics.
Memory - DDR3: 16GB (4x4GB) Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 1600MHz
NVIDIA Graphics - Multi GPU SLI Options Available: 2GB EVGA GTX 680 SC 1084MHz GPU 1536 Cores 6208MHz GDDR5, 2 selected
ATI Graphics - Multi GPU Crossfire Options Available: *No ATI VGA Card Required* (NVIDIA Required)
Power Supply Unit: 850W Corsair Pro Series AX Modular (Dual GTX 680 & ATI 7970)
Braided Power Supply Cables - Requires Modular PSU (See Above): Corsair Individually Sleeved Modular Cable Kit for AX850 - White
Solid State Drives: 256GB Corsair Performance Pro Marvell SSD Read 515MB s Write 440MB s
System Drives: 2TB Seagate Barracuda SATA 6Gb s 7200rpm 64MB Cache
Storage Hard drives: *Storage Hard Drive Not Required*
Optical Drive 1 - DVD Blu Ray: LG BH10LS38 Blu-ray Writer - Retail with Software
Optical Drive 2 - DVD Blu Ray: *DVD Writer Not Required*
Sound Card: Asus Xonar Essence STX Audiophile Sound Card
Internal External (USB) Wireless Adaptors: Edimax EW-7622UMn 11n 300Mbps Wireless USB Adapter
Lighting Effects: *Lighting Effects Not Required*
Operating system: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit - OEM
Software - Acronis True Image 2011 complete back-up software. : A hidden partition is created & a complete system image is produced. Giving you the option to reset it back to factory defaults should you need to. The software also lets you create scheduled backups.
Software - Application: Microsoft Office Home and Business 2010 - OEM
Software - DVD Blu Ray Decoding: Cyberlink Power DVD 11 Ultra - 3D & HD Ready Blu-Ray
Software - Security: Kaspersky Anti Virus 2012 - 1 Year 1 User
Software - Hottest PC Games: Battlefield 3 Game for PC
TFT Monitor: 30" Dell Ultrasharp U3011 Widescreen LCD 2560x1600
NVIDIA 3D Vision TFT Monitor - Requires NVIDIA Graphics Card: *NVIDIA 3D Vision Not Required*
Gaming Keyboard : Corsair Vengeance K90 Performance MMO Mechanical Gaming Keyboard
Gaming Mouse Option: Corsair Vengeance M90 Laser Gaming Mouse - 5700dpi
Gaming Mouse Mat: Razer Ironclad Hard Gaming Mouse Mat Hi-End Pro
Headphones: *Gaming Headphones Not Required*
Speakers: *Speakers Not Required*
Extended Warranty: 3 Year Warranty - 1st Year Onsite 2nd & 3rd Year Return to Base (Parts & Labour).
Delivery & Setup Options: 3XS System Delivery & Setup - Same as above plus all protective packaging removed from within the system keyboard mouse and monitor connected and powered on to the desktop.

[drharvey12]

Hi Bodin,

Very nice looking system. There's nothing wrong with anything as far as I can see. I'll run through the questions that popped into my mind. I'm sure that everything is ok - these are just what I would ask to satisfy my own curiosity as much as anything.

No problems with case, motherboard, CPU & CPU cooler, memory, PSU.

Graphics - 2 x GTX 680. The only thing I would query here is whether 2 GTX 670's would do as opposed to 2 GTX 680's? A GTX 670 offers 95% of the performance of a GTX 680 for roughly 75% of the price. Speaking as somebody with 2 GTX 680's I'm not saying don't get the best; especially if you have the money - just that the GTX 670's typically offer better value for money which could possibly be used elsewhere.

Regarding your question re: SSD's. It really depends on what you are going to be using the second SSD for and how particular you are about noise. Again, taking my own system as a reference I am currently running 4 SSD's and 1 mechanical drive. The main reason for me deciding to do this was to get the system as silent as possible. Also I play a lot of open world RPG's that stream a lot of data on the fly (ie New Vegas & Skyrim) and I have noticed an improvement on running these on an SSD. The grid / area changes are near instantaneous and the game just feels silky smooth. For games like Serious Sam 3 the checkpoints saves are near instantaneous and the levels load quicker but other than that there is no improvement. Civilisation 5 also seems very similar on a HDD too. I know that there are benefits to doing video editing on an SSD or compiling programs but I'm not too sure if photo editing would really benefit significantly. I suppose my thoughts would be that if you haven't used an SSD before then I'd stick with the one you are getting, use it for a while. Put the odd game on it and do some editing on it and then see what you think. If you like the way everything works on them (and the silence) then it's easy to add them in at a later date. If you did want to do it now then I'd suggest the Crucial M4 512GB drives for £299 ish. I have 2 of them in my machine and they are running fine. They might not be quite as speedy as some but outside of benchmarking stats I doubt you'd notice a difference between them and higher end models. They also have a great reputation for reliability.

I see you've picked the Corsair Braided cables and you have a windowed case but have not specified any lighting. I'd maybe think about putting in an LED strip or a CCFL as this does show off the interior very nicely. I just have a white CCFL in mine and it just illuminates the inside nicely to enable me to see everything that's going on. Useful to see all the fans are spinning, no error lights and if there's a speck of dust anywhere! It certainly doesn't light up my room at night - it's more of a faint glow. Anyway, if you're getting nice sleeved cables and have a nice window I think some lighting would make sense. I think it's only about £10 extra and it certainly improves the "look" of the PC when it's on.

You've specified 2 Blu-ray drives, 1 writer and 1 Blu-ray reader. Are you anticipating needing to read off a disk at the same time as writing to one? I suppose if you are copying a lot of DVD's or Blu-rays it might be handy to read off of 1 and then burn straight to another but generally putting an image to the HDD to burn from works fine too and doesn't take too long anyway. Again, you probably have a reason for needing two, it's just that certainly not everybody needs 2 nowadays.

Sound card - The Asus Xonar Essence STX is a very high end card. it has an onboard headphone amp so it's perfect if you have a high end set of headphones you are planning on using with it. It also has an optical out if you're using Hi-fi speakers or connecting to a home theatre system. It doesn't have the 3.5mm jacks for 5.1 or 7.1 systems so I wouldn't imagine it's suitable for the majority of computer speaker systems. The Asus Xonar D2X may be a better fit if you're planning on using one of these. basically, if you've chosen this card specifically to go with your current setup and understand what it will and won't connect to then I'm sure it's the right card for you

O/S - Win 64 Pro. As you have only opted for 16GB of RAM you could get away with running the Home Premium version of windows unless there is some functionality that the Pro version gives you that you specifically want. Either that or if you think you might want to go to more than 16GB of RAM in the future and don't plan on going to Win 8 then getting the Pro version also makes sense.

Very nice monitor and peripherals. I was actually thinking of getting the Corsair vengeance K90 keyboard and the more FPS orientated K60 gaming mouse so I'd be interested on your take on how they work and whether there are any driver issues with "gaming" peripherals in particular.

I guess that's pretty much the things I thought of when looking at your spec. Without knowing how much you know about PC components and how up to date you are with it all I was mainly trying to cover anything that I thought of. I really am not criticising any of the choices or components you have selected. I think that it is an awesome spec and as long as you understand what everything is and have reasons for selecting them then it really is fine.

You only have to see what I've just got from Scan to know that I also am happy with going for good components and am not trying to downgrade you if what you want is the best. Especially considering how much money you are shelling out saving a couple of hundred quid here and there may not be of paramount importance to you anyway. You only have to look at the PC that SCAN have just put together for me to know that I'm all for getting the best you can afford:

http://forums.hexus.net/scan-3xs-sys...ew-system.html

I'd be interested to here back from you if you have the time and at least hope that I've confirmed your selections for you or given you something useful to think about. If you'd like me to go into any more detail on anything I can try but I felt this post was already getting a bit long.

Cheers,

Drharvey

[Edit: Forgot to say that I don't think that sound will be too much of an issue for you. GTX 680's are really not too loud and also the Corsair 100 should be reasonably quiet. You should be able to tailor them with fan profiles to keep them quiet at the expense of slightly higher temps. I don't envision normal everyday operation to affect tv watching too much. On the other hand if you have a surround system belting out at the same time then that might interefere with anybody trying to watch tv ]

[cactusjack]

Hi Bodin

My PC I bought recently from Scan is virtually silent - at least silent to my ears. The case is a corsair carbide 500r, which comes with a few fans.

I have a GTX680 - cant hear it ever even under load in Skyrim on highest settings, the fan stays at 34% and temp at 68 degrees - http://www.scan.co.uk/products/2gb-e...ores-1536-2x-d

[Bodin]

Thanks Dr Harvey for such a considered and detailed reply!

In reply;


Graphics - 2 x GTX 680. The only thing I would query here is whether 2 GTX 670's would do as opposed to 2 GTX 680's? A GTX 670 offers 95% of the performance of a GTX 680 for roughly 75% of the price. Speaking as somebody with 2 GTX 680's I'm not saying don't get the best; especially if you have the money - just that the GTX 670's typically offer better value for money which could possibly be used elsewhere.

I take your point. I am trying to future proof to a degree (as much as you can in these things) also a degree of wanting the best graphical presentation of games....everything maxed etc.

Regarding your question re: SSD's. It really depends on what you are going to be using the second SSD for and how particular you are about noise. Again, taking my own system as a reference I am currently running 4 SSD's and 1 mechanical drive.

That's a lot drive space! I have similar reasons as you for the gaming MMO and open world rpg/strategy. Arma 3 is the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back when it came to the decision to return to PC and i will be playing Arma 2. I understand people have benefitted from an SSD here.

In addition for the sake of size and organisation I think a second SSD would be helpful.

Silent running is also a factor. I live in an apartment with large open plan setting so I want to be as quiet as poss as to keep my wife sweet!


I just have a white CCFL in mine and it just illuminates the inside nicely to enable me to see everything that's going on.

Already decided to include these for reasons stated!

You've specified 2 Blu-ray drives, 1 writer and 1 Blu-ray reader. Are you anticipating needing to read off a disk at the same time as writing to one?

I think it was just the one. The spec list makes it look like 2?


Sound card - The Asus Xonar Essence STX is a very high end card. it has an onboard headphone amp so it's perfect if you have a high end set of headphones you are planning on using with it. It also has an optical out if you're using Hi-fi speakers or connecting to a home theatre system. It doesn't have the 3.5mm jacks for 5.1 or 7.1 systems so I wouldn't imagine it's suitable for the majority of computer speaker systems. The Asus Xonar D2X may be a better fit if you're planning on using one of these. basically, if you've chosen this card specifically to go with your current setup and understand what it will and won't connect to then I'm sure it's the right card for you

Good point. Mainly on headphones but when we move house and the set up is in a spare room I will probably go for 5.1 or 7.1 set up. I listen to a lot of music and play the guitar so being able to record guitar via the sound card on an aux input will be helpful (another reason for a second SSD). I think I need to rethink this.

O/S - Win 64 Pro. As you have only opted for 16GB of RAM you could get away with running the Home Premium version of windows unless there is some functionality that the Pro version gives you that you specifically want. Either that or if you think you might want to go to more than 16GB of RAM in the future and don't plan on going to Win 8 then getting the Pro version also makes sense.

Do intend to upgrade to windows 8 once it has bedded in.

Very nice monitor and peripherals. I was actually thinking of getting the Corsair vengeance K90 keyboard and the more FPS orientated K60 gaming mouse so I'd be interested on your take on how they work and whether there are any driver issues with "gaming" peripherals in particular.

Will do. Was going for the M90 mouse for all the programmable buttons. Arma 2 requires all manner of key strokes for various operations so I was looking for to this functionality.

You only have to see what I've just got from Scan to know that I also am happy with going for good components and am not trying to downgrade you if what you want is the best.

Looks equally awesome and glad you are enjoying!

Your input has been a great help. Confirmed much of my choices and certainly given me food for thought on other issues/focused my thoughts on tweaks especially with the sound card.

Do you have your SSD's set up in Raid configuration. I don't know too much about it but understand it may assist the system running even quicker?

Will the edimax wireless adaptor need a n router? I may need to update my router at the same time rather than wait a little. I have been using a mac at home so not aware of n technology.

Not sure when I will get to discuss these amendments with scan. Still waiting for the order to go through. I understand I will get a call from the technician building it or should I just email them? I think I've been harassing them loads already about confirming the order! But on the other hand dropping £4k plus on a system......

Thanks!

[Bodin]

Cheers cactusjack. Thanks for encouragement on the 680's re noise!

[drharvey12]

Duplicate - please delete if able.

[drharvey12]

You've specified 2 Blu-ray drives, 1 writer and 1 Blu-ray reader. Are you anticipating needing to read off a disk at the same time as writing to one?

I think it was just the one. The spec list makes it look like 2?[I]

Do you have your SSD's set up in Raid configuration. I don't know too much about it but understand it may assist the system running even quicker?

Will the edimax wireless adaptor need a n router? I may need to update my router at the same time rather than wait a little. I have been using a mac at home so not aware of n technology.

Hi Bodin,

I don't have my SSD's set up in a RAID configuration. When I initially got my first SSD the TRIM function didn't work on RAID'd SSD drives. I believe that now most SSD's do support RAID and the TRIM function but it would be worth checking that if you plan on doing it.

Basically there are 4 different RAID options, 0, 1 , 5 & 10.

I would assume you are interested in RAID 0 which splits the data over 2 disks (SSD's) so that when data is being retrieved you get the data from both at the same time with the ideal being that your program loads twice as fast. With SSD's as they work so fast anyway this option seems a tad redundant. The disadvantage you still get is that if either of the SSD's fail you lose all the data on both.

RAID 1 sets the drive up to mirror one another so whilst there is no speed boost should one drive fail the other one can switch over and you wouldn't suffer any downtime. This is useful but whether you want to spend a fairly hefty chunk of cash on 2 SSD's and use 1 purely as a form of redundancy is up to you. I wouldn't bother but then I am always happy to reinstall windows back on my drive and backup any important files to my external HDD anyway so I'm not particularly worried about losing data. Depends on your circumstances though.

RAID 5 & 10 require 3 & 4 drives to be used respectively and so are normally used for business's with large databases where redundancy and speed is important. I wouldn't think you would be looking at either of these options for a home setup.

My opinion is that putting an SSD in a RAID format isn't particularly worth it for RAID 0 as the noticeable performance increase would be minimal and you just double the risk of losing your data due to mechanical failure. RAID 1 doesn't appeal to me too much as "wasting" an SSD on redundancy isn't something I feel I need to do.


As far as I am aware the Edimax Wireless Adaptor doesn't need an N router as it should be compatible with the slower modes as well. The product page confirms it:

Complies with wireless 802.11b/g/n standards with data rate up to 300Mbps

As it will function in modes b/g it will be ok to use on any router. I'd still seriously think about getting an N router though or using a direct connection if you're going to be downloading large files a lot or playing a lot of online games.

Oh yes, it did look to me as though two blu-ray drives were specified but I guess that is just how they note it on the spec list. My bad

Lastly, I wouldn't worry too much about harrassing Scan. If you have a legitimate question they really don't mind how often they hear form you....at least that has been my experience. I would say the sooner you let them know of any planned changes the better really. Will allow them to put stuff on order if it's required.

If you have the time please let me know what your final build is. It certainly should be awesome!!!

[Bodin]

Hi Drharvey,

All the advice I've had is that the benefits of setting the drives in raid are fairly minimal when balanced with the cons so it is something I will avoid.

I've been talking with Scan today and was advised 2 x 120gb SSD's but I will probably go with 1 x 120gb for o/s and 1 x 256 for game installs.

Scan advised on a creative sb recon3d pci-e.

But i've asked for thoughts with the one you recommended. I will see what is said.

I,ve also gone for some white ccfl lighting.

To be fair scan have been good getting back to me but the finance company are slow releasing the funds and getting back to me. I understand that is delaying scan moving forward. I've gone for the pay in 8 months with no interest option rather than pay cash now but it has taken a week from application and the monies have not been released. I am lucky enough to be able to pay cash but I find it's far easier to spend than save!

[cactusjack]

I am not sure re: all 680s - but my one with the dual fan is silent.

I am sure the others are just as good - but may be worth querying with scan which of the graphics cards offers the best noise levels

[matts-uk]

I don't have my SSD's set up in a RAID configuration.

To qualify what I am about to say, I have built a couple of hundred servers, going back to Netware 286, with RAID configurations of all levels and types. The last server I built in February this year, to host a client/server database, had RAID10 SSDs. I have just (a week ago) built myself a gaming rig with twin SSDs in RAID0.

My apologies for quoting you out of order but to cut to the chase, as it were.

My opinion is that putting an SSD in a RAID format isn't particularly worth it for RAID 0

I think you need to look at the whole system and the answer depends on what else you are spending the money on. RAID0 SSDs + twin GTX670s is going to provide more usable performance than JBOD SSDs and twin GTX680s, in my opinion.

Back in order and in more detail.

With SSD's as they work so fast anyway this option [RAID0] seems a tad redundant.

The real world performance increase I am getting from a twin SSD RAID0 system drive is pretty astounding. A friend of mine recently bought a very similar gaming rig, with a single SSD and there is a significant, if slightly subjective, difference in the real world 'feel'. The cursory benchmarks we have performed are most definitely on the side of RAID0, as you might expect.

Windows reads and writes a great number of small system files, which is exactly what RAID0 does well in comparison with all the other alternatives. Write speed has been the big bottleneck in Windows for some years now and RAID0 can double it, at least. Applications that do a lot of caching (photo editing) should also see significant performance increases from RAID0. It has taken a while to get there but the latest generation of processors (Ivy-Bridge) and chipsets (Z77 etc) are finally able to realise the potential of solid state RAID0.

The disadvantage you still get is that if either of the SSD's fail you lose all the data on both.

True. It was a major issue with mechanical drives, as the complexity of the mechanisms make them somewhat prone to unpredictable failure, cheap IDE/SATA drives particularly so. SSDs have far fewer failure modes though. I am not going to claim SSDs are much more reliable, because the technology is currently moving far too quickly. SSDs should be much more reliable but we won't really know until they have been around in large numbers for over 5 years.

RAID 1 sets the drive up to mirror one another so whilst there is no speed boost should one drive fail the other one can switch over and you wouldn't suffer any downtime.

RAID1 doubles the read speed. There are two drives, able to seek and read the next file fragment independently. The write speed is no better than a single drive but you get full, online, redundancy. RAID0 reads and writes as many times faster as there are disks in the array, uses disk space most efficiently but has as many times the potential for failure, as there are disks in the array.

I wouldn't bother but then I am always happy to reinstall windows back on my drive and backup any important files to my external HDD anyway...

Then you might want to reconsider RAID0.

It took about 20 minutes to perform a base install of Windows from a USB stick, onto my new PC. It took roughly another 2 days to get the drivers in order, download, install and configure the applications, apply the updates and make all the little registry changes I take for granted. The long recovery time is why I favored RAID1 for (truly) power user Windows XP desktops.

My gaming rig is set up with a near line backup. The SSD RAID0 is imaged to a mechanical drive overnight, which is simple enough with Windows 7 backup. If the RAID does break, I should be able to recover to a system state no more than 24 hours old, within a couple hours of obtaining hardware. Important data, the stuff that can not be easily reproduced, is kept on a RAID5 on my network.

RAID 5 & 10 require 3 & 4 drives to be used respectively and so are normally used for business's with large databases where redundancy and speed is important.

RAID5 provides read speeds as fast as RAID0 but with partial online redundancy. RAID5 write speed is relatively poor though, due to having to calculate and write a parity byte for every byte written.

RAID5 provides a reasonable compromise between performance, reliability, complexity and disk space costs, very suitable for sharing documents from a central location. It was the preserve of businesses but it's a valid setup for a NAS on a Gigabit home network, these days.

RAID10 (RAID 1+0) came about because of RAID5s poor write performance, which can have a significantly detrimental impact on client/server database performance (among other things). Basically RAID10 is a mirror of RAID0 arrays. You get RAID0 performance and RAID1 redundancy but the level of complexity brings more failure modes and a greater potential for failures. RAID10 is complicated and expensive and I wouldn't recommend it outside of hosts dedicated to specialist applications.

[Bodin]

Thanks for that Matt. That seems quite sophisticated for me. I think it is probably something I will do in the future myself once I have the new system up and running and I am comfortable with it all. I don't want a new system that I do not know how to "administrate" but any performance enhancement for CPU "heavy" games is important to me.

It is a good while since I have delved behind the scenes. For the past 8 years it has been put a disk in the console at home and call the IT team at work if it doesn't work after turning it off and back on again!

2004 was the last time with Half Life 2. That's what happends when you get married!

[cactusjack]

Thanks for that Matt. That seems quite sophisticated for me. I think it is probably something I will do in the future myself once I have the new system up and running and I am comfortable with it all. I don't want a new system that I do not know how to "administrate" but any performance enhancement for CPU "heavy" games is important to me.

It is a good while since I have delved behind the scenes. For the past 8 years it has been put a disk in the console at home and call the IT team at work if it doesn't work after turning it off and back on again!

2004 was the last time with Half Life 2. That's what happends when you get married!

Time to get the Mrs into gaming I think

[Bodin]

Time to get the Mrs into gaming I think

I would but then I would have to share my toys! She can have the PS3 now, not sure I could handle 24/7 Lego star wars/sims or other games of that ilk on my shiny new toy!

[drharvey12]

To qualify what I am about to say, I have built a couple of hundred servers, going back to Netware 286, with RAID configurations of all levels and types. The last server I built in February this year, to host a client/server database, had RAID10 SSDs. I have just (a week ago) built myself a gaming rig with twin SSDs in RAID0.

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your very informative post

I can't remember exactly who told me not to bother with RAID on SSD's but after reading your post and doing a bit of research it looks like, as you said, it does scale very well and is certainly worth thinking about.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/ssd-ra...iew-32151.html

As I've got everything running quite nicely at the moment I'll leave everything as is but next time I have to reinstall Windows or upgrade to Win 8 I'll certainly consider putting my OS & Apps SSD drives together. I'm assuming there shouldn't be any problems as they are the same size and roughly work at similar speeds.

Thanks again.

[Bodin]

Final Spec (subject to stock and any advice from the build team) is;

Base

3XS Vengeance Z77 SLI - Custom

Build

CORSAIR OBSIDIAN CC650DW-1 MID
Asus Sabertooth Z77 MoBo
Intel Core i7 3770K s1155 OC'd to 4.6ghz
CORSAIR H100 CWCH100 INTEL/AMD
16GB 4x4G CML16GX3M4A1600C9 LP
2GB EVGA GTX 680 SC SIGNATURE x 2
CORSAIR 850W CMPSU-850AXUK
128Gb Corsair Performance Pro SSD
256GB Corsair Performance Pro SSD
2TB SEAGATE ST2000DM001 SATA3
LG BH10LS38.AUAR 10x Blu Ray RW
Creature Recond 3D Soundcard
Edimax EW-7622UMn 11n USB Adap
Corsair Braided Leads in Blue
Set of 2 X Sharkoon White CCFL


Software

MS Win 7 Pro 64bit OEM
ACRONIS TRUEIMAGE 2012 retail
MS Office 2010 Home/Bus.PKCKEY
PowerDVD11 ULTRA OEM CD only
BATTLEFIELD3 FOR PC

Peripherals

30 DELL U3011 Widescreen LCD
Corsair Vengeance K90 Keyboard
Corsair Vengeance M90 Mouse
Razer Ironclad Hard Gaming Mat

Build date is 17/07/12 and estimate delivery is 22/7/12. Fingers crossed an earlier spot opens!

Thats to everyone for their input thus far.

[cactusjack]

oooh you have the 680 Signature Card like me

Looks like a killer spec!!