Providing a link is not enough under the law. You have to go out of your way to see the exceptions. The law is that you must state the exceptions before purchase so that the customer knows exactly what is covered and is not.
EDIT: Saracen also said the same in his earlier post. You must unambigiously state the exceptions before the customer is allowed to purchase, which Scan are NOT doing.
Ph4ZeD
I appreciate your friend may work for the FSA and all of the appropriate info is available in the public domain. I can assure you we went through a long legal process, involving 3 sets of legals for the ........1) Selling opt-out insurance is not technically illegal but against good practice and if anyone were to complain to the FSA, Scan wouldn't have a leg to stand on and an example would be made of you
1) Underwriters
2) Our's
3) Appointed Representatives
If we had not received full legal approval we would not have gone live.
Incorrect, we are NOT breaking the law and no cooling of period is required by law for this type of insurance.2) When you sell insurance, you legally have to give a 14-day cooling off period in which the customer can obtain a refund on the insurance. You are NOT doing this and so you are breaking the law
You are correct in saying that we have to clearly state the exclusions that are not covered, the checkout stage clearly links to The "Key Facts and Terms & Conditions", are NOT hard to see all BEFORE payment is requested , again this has legal approval and the subject of legality will not be debated in future posts.3) When selling insurance, you have to clearly state the exclusions that are not covered by the insurance. I just went through your checkout and nowhere were exclusions stated. This again is breaking the
law.
Chris
Last edited by wesleyaldred; 06-05-2009 at 11:27 AM.
Erm, no. This type of "connected" product policy, sold in this way, is not within the remit of the FSA. Or not yet, anyway. Products similar in principle however, such as the CTI used by the travel industry are FSA regulated, and have been clamped down on a LOT in recent times. The opt-out principle is not one the FSA are happy with, but as I understand it, it currently isn't their job to look at it.Originally Posted by Ph4ZeD
As Funkstar said, not for short-term policies there isn't. And the policy duration of this product is within the definition of "short term". Your mate at the FSA either doesn't have all the relevant details, is is just wrong there I'm afraid.
As I understand it, if Scan were selling an insurance policy as such, that might well be the case. But they aren't. They're adding people to their master policy. The way that is regulated is different and much less onerous rules apply.
I have to agree with ChrisP - I can't see anything illegal about this policy. If I could, believe me, I'd have said so That may change if the EU do what they've proposed about opt-outs, but as things stand right now, it appears perfectly legal.
The reference I made to things having to be unambiguous was not in relation to FSA regulation but to separate legislation on misleading commercial practices, and it was because Chris seemed to suggest I thought Scan were hiding the exclusions. I was very clear about that - IF Scan were hiding the exclusions, or making them ambiguous, it would be illegal, but IMHO they aren't, and I was not suggesting that they were.
I've said several times in that other thread and I'll say it just the once here, I don't like the way this policy is marketed, but I don't think there's ANYTHING illegal about it.
I made an order the other night while tired and completely missed the opt out option. I have bought from Scan for many years now and to be honest this isn't something I would expect from them. The whole idea of an opt out with no cancellation if you forget is a cynical way to make the insurance look cheap by "tricking" people into taking something they wouldn't normally choose. At least I have the piece of mind now when I install those blank DVDs :/
Response written by Elan Raja - The Director of Scan Computers
"Hello All,
It’s been some time since I have been tempted enough to feel that I must comment on the views expressed on a topic. Before doing so, I will clearly set out my email structure to avoid any misunderstandings of my comments.
BACKGROUND
Since day “dot” Scan has worked with the HEXUS forum users abiding by the “3xs” philosophy. For those of you that don’t know what it is, we want to give you
1) The right Specification of goods
2) The Right Service levels
3) For you to be satisfied to shop again at Scan.
3 x s = Spec, service, Satisfaction
Over a period of time, we have taken a keen interest in the opinions of HEXUS users expressed by threads on the forum and in ALL INSTANCES they have been read and understood at all managerial levels within Scan. It must be made clear that it is easy to read a problem but far harder to find a commercially viable solution. In reading some threads, I sometimes get the impression that people can forget that Scan is a registered company who can only survive by making a profit.
KEY POINT - HEXUS users feedback is valid to Scan and we will always be doing our best to listen and act where possible on the comments taking into account the circumstances around the case. To the pessimists out there, WE LOVE YOU UNCONDITIONALLY.
Past events
There have been many instances where we have sold products and there has been a “dispute” over their warranty state. i.e. User claiming defect, manufacturer claiming user damage. Scan get caught in the middle to resolve the dispute. In essence a LOSE-LOSE SITUATION for all. In fact, it is the so-called expert systems builders who get involved in these disputes the most. "Look, I know what I am doing, I have done 1,000 installations before, I would not have broken it!".
I do not want to dwell on this point other than this is what bought about the Scansure concept.
Here are answers to the most common questions I have seen from the forums.
What is SCANSURE?
As it says on the TIN.
“Important note" - Scansure protection has been specifically designed to reduce the risk of accidental component damage during installation, coupled with giving the customer peace of mind. Our aim with Scansure to encourage people to build their own PC confidently.”
Why is it 28 days ?
TO keep it cheap. As it is installation damage we are insuring against, we feel 28 days is more than enough time.
To do it longer would cost considerably more, and to do it less would cost the same! Hence settling on the 28 days, a month seems a perfectly reasonable length of time to perform an installation.
Why is it OPT-OUT ?
Quite simply because we negotiated hard with the insurance underwriters in order to get the cover as cheap as possible for the large majority of our customers. The underwriters have years, or even centuries, of expertise in calculating risk. The larger the number of people who take out cover across a broad range of components as possible evens out the risk and hence you the customers get a better price. In fact, the experts putting together the more complex systems are getting the best deal!
IT IS CLEARLY MARKED UP FRONT AND OPT-OUT IS ONLY TWO CLICKS. What we did not intend to do is confuse customers like some sites, e.g. budget airlines where is very difficult to work out how to avoid paying for unwanted features. The Scan sure option is the first decision that has to be made in our shopping cart.
Is Scan making money from it?
As I have said above, we are a registered company and not a charity. What more can we say? Scan puts its “heart on its sleeves” and genuinely does its best to work with customers from TOP DOWN.
Market prices are transparent, service levels are not. We are not forcing customers to Buy from Scan, but are encouraging them by offering what we believe is the “3XS philosophy”.
There was even a Crazy theory that Scansure was being used to pay for our “free carriage offer”, just to be clear – We are NOT USING SCANSURE TO PAYFOR HEXUS FREE DELIVERIES.
THE OPT-OUT OPTION, IS CLEAR AND IS TWO CLICKS AND IS NON COMPULSORY.
Why have we got “GREEN TEXT” under each product?
Simple, to get awareness up. This will change to a LOGO in time to come.
Will Scan listen to all the comments?
Scan has made it clear from start that we always listen and TRY to work in a way to resolve what is commercially possible. If some customers choose to shop elsewhere because of a OPT IN, OPT OUT policy we can’t stop them, and have never tried to. Again, THE Market price is transparent, but LOYALTY AND SERVICE IS NOT.
All I ask is for users to be fair and weigh up the Benefits V the cost (in this case TWO CLICKS TO OPT OUT)
As much as we try, we know you can’t please everyone.
This email has been written to reinforce our commitment and to show that there are NO MYSTERIOUS FORCES AT WORK TO FORCE USERS TO BUY SCANSURE.
Be assured of our valued support and commitment to the forums.
Thanks
Elan"
Last edited by Mossy; 21-05-2009 at 12:44 PM.
How does it reduce the risk of damaging something? its gonna happen if you have insurance or not? Its surely there to help you out if you do damage something, and you get a replacement?Scansure protection has been specifically designed to reduce the risk of accidental component damage during installation,
That leads me to my second point - What circumstances cover it? after about 20 pages about it collectively, it still hasn't been answered - I read that it only covers accidental damage? also it said if you go against the manufacturers instructions then its void? So it's never gonna be valid?
Also - Most people aren't against the insurance itself, just the fact we have to opt out. Fair enough, opt out and you're opted out forever. But we aren't, and you don't seem to want to listen to that..
If I were a sceptic and had the moderating power I would copy the last 3 posts onto the other thread in Hexus channels where I would feel more comfortable commenting freely. As it is, in this section I do not feel I can post openly and freely, not because anything untoward has happened to my posts but because other posts I have read in the past are no longer here.
Frankly I WILL look elsewhere before purchasing computer/electronic orientated goods as a result of this policy, that is not to say I will not purchase from Scan (Unless Scan choose to refuse my custom) but there is only one other company whom I am less likely to choose in preference to Scan as a result. (Obviously if Scan are the sole suppliers and/or SUBSTANTIALLY less expensive than its competitors I would consider purchasing from them providing they want my custom).
From what I have read on these forums and on other sites regarding Scan Computers, I do not believe I am the only prospective customer that feels this way, to be honest whatever any member of staff says be it company director or sales person will not change the fact that a great deal of good will and loyalty has been lost as a result of this policy.
One plea I will make, when company employees make official replies to questions would it be possible for them to use a spell checker please, I realise not everyone is bothered but it is very off-putting to read official company responses/replies where even simple words are not spelt correctly.
beanbandit (21-05-2009)
Tbh i don't really see the issue here, opt out is 2 clicks, if clicking twice makes you want to consider other retailers all be it you have used scan for months? years? with good service then you have some issues tbh.
If you don't want the insurance simply don't take it... i worked as a salesman for a furniture retailer and it was my job to shuv it down peoples necks and make sure they took the insurance or it was my neck, being a online retailer scan can't do this and you can make a decision on if you want it or not without having someone tell you how good or bad it is.
They are at the end of the day a business and are their to make money, if the insurance makes them money and benefits some people in the process so be it.
Insurance is a gamble, no worse then playing the lottery or betting on the horses, sometimes it pays out other times it doesn't. Ive seen people get a new £1000 sofa because they burnt a hole through the arm with a cig, and others refused because they didn't report a stain in time.
Rant over.
Mossy (21-05-2009)
Welcome to Club Pedant my friend
The issue is that some of us thought Scan were better than using the sort of techniques involved to "shuv it down people's necks", and that is certainly the attitude for sales staff that has caused me to walk out of more than one shop, including furniture stores, with the store losing not just the insurance sale, but the furniture sale as well.
That's precisely why a lot of us don't like it. The point of the opt-out is to sell more, and the mere fact that it needs to be opt-out to do it refutes the idea that it is a genuine choice made by the customer. It's not about letting the customer choose to buy what he or she wants .... it's about using psychology yo sell something you know we won't buy in such quantity if we have to choose to buy, rather than choose to opt out.Why is it OPT-OUT ?
Quite simply because we negotiated hard with the insurance underwriters in order to get the cover as cheap as possible for the large majority of our customers. The underwriters have years, or even centuries, of expertise in calculating risk. The larger the number of people who take out cover across a broad range of components as possible evens out the risk and hence you the customers get a better price. In fact, the experts putting together the more complex systems are getting the best deal!
I for one don't like to be treated as a cash cow, and just as I've walked out of shops that have tried the hard sell, I take that attitude into account with online purchases too. Like Rebel, this has resulted in Scan being at or near the bottom of the list of people I'd turn to to buy, instead of the very top of it. That's not much of an issue as I don't buy much computer gear online anyway. Perhaps more significant is that I have recommended quite a few friends and family this way, and a lot of customers as well. Given how I feel about this opt-out and the bad taste it leaves in my mouth, that won't be happening again any time soon.
beanbandit (21-05-2009)
At the risk of sending this slightly off topic i hear you on that one, the certain retailer i worked for cared more about getting the insurance then they did about getting the sofa sale, simply because the insurance had a 150% profit margin the sofa was lucky to have a 25-40% profit margin, but enough of that.The issue is that some of us thought Scan were better than using the sort of techniques involved to "shuv it down people's necks", and that is certainly the attitude for sales staff that has caused me to walk out of more than one shop, including furniture stores, with the store losing not just the insurance sale, but the furniture sale as well.
I still fail to see the issue in all honesty, maybe its just my way of thinking or the fact ive spent a few years in the retail sector, but personally i don't see the opt out system as that big a deal. I mean will you be making this big a fuss when the government finally pases the law on organ donation and makes that a opt out system?That's precisely why a lot of us don't like it. The point of the opt-out is to sell more, and the mere fact that it needs to be opt-out to do it refutes the idea that it is a genuine choice made by the customer. It's not about letting the customer choose to buy what he or she wants .... it's about using psychology yo sell something you know we won't buy in such quantity if we have to choose to buy, rather than choose to opt out.
I for one don't like to be treated as a cash cow, and just as I've walked out of shops that have tried the hard sell, I take that attitude into account with online purchases too. Like Rebel, this has resulted in Scan being at or near the bottom of the list of people I'd turn to to buy, instead of the very top of it. That's not much of an issue as I don't buy much computer gear online anyway. Perhaps more significant is that I have recommended quite a few friends and family this way, and a lot of customers as well. Given how I feel about this opt-out and the bad taste it leaves in my mouth, that won't be happening again any time soon.
The idea of a opt out system is simply to get peoples attention, you have to actively take it out your basket meaning you might be more inclinded to look and find out what it is and if it relates to you or your purchase.
I 100% agree with ya that its a tool to sell more, but like any business if the tools are there they are going to use them, i just don't see a issue with it personally.
TBH I do agree the the "Opt Out" system is a little more... assertive? And would definitely have thought the "You Choose/No Choice" option would have been best (i.e. you can't continue until you Opt In or Opt Out).
However i wouldn't really say that i have anything against it... personally i find logging into Scan taking much more time and effort (passwords, postcodes and questions etc.) than removing Scansure from the basket.
Scan are effectively "shoving it down our throats" with the Scansure green text under "EVERY" component that they are giving cover for. Take a look at the Gaming Mouse page, does a mouse really need insurance? Are people that stupid that they can't plug a USB connector in? Are Scan taking the Michael? I believe they are.
I'm with Saracen, when i go shopping for anything and they try and force insurance on me, it's normally followed with bye bye and away i go. With Scan's continued poor website/stock system it's looking like i will be calling time on using Scan as my preferred supplier.
I've gone into a lot more detail about why I object to the system in the other thread, in the channel section, so if you're interested, would suggest reading it there rather than me reiterating it all here.
But the general principle is that when I go into a shop, online or otherwise, I expect to be the one that decides what I want to buy, and not to have the shop decide I'm buying what they want to sell me, unless I take action to take it out of my basket, whether it be insurance I don't need or want, or the example I used elsewhere of Tesco adding a bottle of milk to your basket every time you go the the checkout.
I also said that not everyone will object. And that some of those that do object will shop elsewhere as a result. If you can't see any problem, fair enough. I do, though.
Well said but the English grammar is very poor.Response written by Elan Raja - The Director of Scan Computers
"Hello All,
It’s been some time since I have been tempted enough to feel that I must comment on the views expressed on a topic. Before doing so, I will clearly set out my email structure to avoid any misunderstandings of my comments.
BACKGROUND
Since day “dot” Scan has worked with the HEXUS forum users abiding by the “3xs” philosophy. For those of you that don’t know what it is, we want to give you
1) The right Specification of goods
2) The Right Service levels
3) For you to be satisfied to shop again at Scan.
3 x s = Spec, service, Satisfaction
Over a period of time, we have taken a keen interest in the opinions of HEXUS users expressed by threads on the forum and in ALL INSTANCES they have been read and understood at all managerial levels within Scan. It must be made clear that it is easy to read a problem but far harder to find a commercially viable solution. In reading some threads, I sometimes get the impression that people can forget that Scan is a registered company who can only survive by making a profit.
KEY POINT - HEXUS users feedback is valid to Scan and we will always be doing our best to listen and act where possible on the comments taking into account the circumstances around the case. To the pessimists out there, WE LOVE YOU UNCONDITIONALLY.
Past events
There have been many instances where we have sold products and there has been a “dispute” over their warranty state. i.e. User claiming defect, manufacturer claiming user damage. Scan get caught in the middle to resolve the dispute. In essence a LOSE-LOSE SITUATION for all. In fact, it is the so-called expert systems builders who get involved in these disputes the most. "Look, I know what I am doing, I have done 1,000 installations before, I would not have broken it!".
I do not want to dwell on this point other than this is what bought about the Scansure concept.
Here are answers to the most common questions I have seen from the forums.
What is SCANSURE?
As it says on the TIN.
“Important note" - Scansure protection has been specifically designed to reduce the risk of accidental component damage during installation, coupled with giving the customer peace of mind. Our aim with Scansure to encourage people to build their own PC confidently.”
Why is it 28 days ?
TO keep it cheap. As it is installation damage we are insuring against, we feel 28 days is more than enough time.
To do it longer would cost considerably more, and to do it less would cost the same! Hence settling on the 28 days, a month seems a perfectly reasonable length of time to perform an installation.
Why is it OPT-OUT ?
Quite simply because we negotiated hard with the insurance underwriters in order to get the cover as cheap as possible for the large majority of our customers. The underwriters have years, or even centuries, of expertise in calculating risk. The larger the number of people who take out cover across a broad range of components as possible evens out the risk and hence you the customers get a better price. In fact, the experts putting together the more complex systems are getting the best deal!
IT IS CLEARLY MARKED UP FRONT AND OPT-OUT IS ONLY TWO CLICKS. What we did not intend to do is confuse customers like some sites, e.g. budget airlines where is very difficult to work out how to avoid paying for unwanted features. The Scan sure option is the first decision that has to be made in our shopping cart.
Is Scan making money from it?
As I have said above, we are a registered company and not a charity. What more can we say? Scan puts its “heart on its sleeves” and genuinely does its best to work with customers from TOP DOWN.
Market prices are transparent, service levels are not. We are not forcing customers to Buy from Scan, but are encouraging them by offering what we believe is the “3XS philosophy”.
There was even a Crazy theory that Scansure was being used to pay for our “free carriage offer”, just to be clear – We are NOT USING SCANSURE TO PAYFOR HEXUS FREE DELIVERIES.
THE OPT-OUT OPTION, IS CLEAR AND IS TWO CLICKS AND IS NON COMPULSORY.
Why have we got “GREEN TEXT” under each product?
Simple, to get awareness up. This will change to a LOGO in time to come.
Will Scan listen to all the comments?
Scan has made it clear from start that we always listen and TRY to work in a way to resolve what is commercially possible. If some customers choose to shop elsewhere because of a OPT IN, OPT OUT policy we can’t stop them, and have never tried to. Again, THE Market price is transparent, but LOYALTY AND SERVICE IS NOT.
All I ask is for users to be fair and weigh up the Benefits V the cost (in this case TWO CLICKS TO OPT OUT)
As much as we try, we know you can’t please everyone.
This email has been written to reinforce our commitment and to show that there are NO MYSTERIOUS FORCES AT WORK TO FORCE USERS TO BUY SCANSURE.
Be assured of our valued support and commitment to the forums.
Thanks
Elan"
As a long term customer, I also think that the way that Scansure is implemented stinks.
I think it could be a great service, but not when it's automatically added to your basket. Regardless of what any of the Scan bods say, it's not immediately clear that it is in your basket, and after all, why would it be in there as you haven't put it there and didn't know about it?
You owe it to yourself to click here really.
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