News - Valve hit by legal action in Australia over Steam refunds

[HEXUS]

The ACCC is suing the gaming company for misleading consumer guarantees.

Read more.

[azrael-]

Yeah, I think that Valve/Steam should rethink its refund policy and make changes accordingly. As it stands right now the customer has practically no recourse with Valve/Steam if a purchased product does not live up to expectations. In general Steam's customer service is practically non-existent with the prevailing answer to almost any kind of question being a resounding "NO".

[Noxvayl]

I hope this means Valve catch up to Origin in giving refunds for games that are not acceptable to gamers. It is very sad that the horrible store that is Origin actually manages to provide better customer service in this particular area, Valve should have addressed this a long time ago.

I know Valve have a nice flat setup, and low overheads due to their success, but they can't ignore the need to support their store with a customer service team. It is insane to think they have gotten away with it for so long and have even moved away from curating content on their store which is harming developers with the ridiculous amount of old games being thrown on and making it to the front page.

I certainly hope this is something other countries do as well to make sure consumers are not taken advantage of as they often are on Steam due to the lack of hands on control that Valve exert over the store. We don't need a walled garden but we do need better protections against developer's unjustifiable claims and general exploitative behaviour that is inherent in an unregulated marketplace.

[Otherhand]

I hope Valve won't tussle over whether or not the "local law" or "Australian consumers" terms really apply, and instead come up with more sensible policies for the whole world. Few customers will attempt to abuse a retailer's willingness to replace/refund sales, and for those who do so, it's every retailer's right to refuse service. Even a giant like Amazon follows a no-quibbles policy, unless you really start to take the p***.

[eiamhere69]

I'd be interested in knowing what the PSN situation is in Australia, anything I have ever read is that they just outright lie and refuse to obey abey right to a refund, even whn they are a t fault.

[BobF64]

I hope Valve won't tussle over whether or not the "local law" or "Australian consumers" terms really apply, and instead come up with more sensible policies for the whole world.

Nah, what will happen is that Australian users will start the Steam client and receive a message saying "Due to incompatibilities between Valve terms and Australian laws, your account has been deactivated. Sorry for the inconvenience, please contact your local politician and whinge at them."

[jimbouk]

Playing devil's advocate, the statement "Valve may be an American based company with no physical presence in Australia, but it is carrying on business in Australia by selling to Australian consumers, who are protected by the Australian Consumer Law," is interesting.

So as a UK company, with a UK website selling in UK currency offer worldwide delivery I'm obliged to comply with Australian consumer law should an Australian citizen buy from me? What if an Australian citizen on holiday purchases something, are the afforded the same consumer protections?

Nah, what will happen is that Australian users will start the Steam client and receive a message saying "Due to incompatibilities between Valve terms and Australian laws, your account has been deactivated. Sorry for the inconvenience, please contact your local politician and whinge at them."

If you were a non-Australian company would this really seem like a bad idea?

But yeah, sort it out Valve. It shouldn't take media storms or government agencies to take you to court to provide a reasonable refund policy.

[crossy]

I've got mixed feeling about the complaints, with faults on both sides as far as I can see

The ACCC points out that Valve's refund policy misleads Australian Steam users on the following fronts:
1. consumers were not entitled to a refund for any games sold by Valve via Steam in any circumstances;
2. Valve had excluded, restricted or modified statutory guarantees and/or warranties that goods would be of acceptable quality;
3. Valve was not under any obligation to repair, replace or provide a refund for a game where the consumer had not contacted and attempted to resolve the problem with the computer game developer; and
4. the statutory consumer guarantees did not apply to games sold by Valve.

#1 is patently unreasonable of Valve - I'd want some clarity under what circumstances a refund would be available.
#2 is also unreasonable, but this time it's the ACCC being a dingos doodah. Define "acceptable quality" with regards to software. If an OS BSOD's once a week is that "unacceptable quality" and therefore I'm entitled to sue the bejabers out of the manufacturer? A fault (and all software has them) that is a "show stopper" for one might be a minor inconvenience for someone else. Tying up with #1 if a game crashes on a particular combination of hardware, and a developer admits that this is the case, then I'd think this justification for offering a refund.
#3 I also regard as an unreasonable ACCC demand, although I'd modify to say "publisher" not "developer" unless Valve was the publisher. E.g. there's a lot of Call Of Duty content on Steam, so presumably my complaints would go to Activision.
#4 again is Valve trying it on

Playing devil's advocate, the statement "Valve may be an American based company with no physical presence in Australia, but it is carrying on business in Australia by selling to Australian consumers, who are protected by the Australian Consumer Law," is interesting.

So as a UK company, with a UK website selling in UK currency offer worldwide delivery I'm obliged to comply with Australian consumer law should an Australian citizen buy from me? What if an Australian citizen on holiday purchases something, are the afforded the same consumer protections?

What would worry me more is if someone from Texas/California was in that situation - given the appalling state of the US legal system.

But you've got a point in that this is something that Valve need to sort out urgently - especially as they're intending to grow the business with SteamOS/SteamBox.

[zaph0d]

The situation is similar here - I beat them over the head with UK Consumer law until they agreed to capitulate "As a Customer Service Gesture"

[ME] I would like either a refund or account credit to the value of this game.
The reason I am asking for this is due to the misleading nature of the product page on steam detailing in-game content that is not in fact in-game. This could be construed to be False Advertising as no mention of the fact that the advertised product features are in fact DLC packs to be purchased seperately is made during product videos, screenshots or in the product information.

As such the refund/credit should be applied forthwith as per UK Sale of Goods Act 1979 and Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 as it is neither of Satisfactory Quality or As Described.

[Steam Rep] Hello Sir,

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.

We cannot offer a refund for this transaction.

As with most software products, we do not offer refunds or exchanges for purchases made on our website or through the Steam Client. This includes, but is not limited to, games, Early Access Games, software, gifted or traded purchases, downloadable content, subscriptions, and in-game items/currency.

We will make an exception and refund titles that are still listed as available for Pre-Purchase on our website. The refund request must be received prior to the official release date for the item. You can see when a pre-purchased title is scheduled to officially unlock by viewing the green information bar on its store page.

This only applies to preorders purchased from your account; preordered titles received or sent through the Steam Trading system cannot be refunded. We do not offer refunds for Early Access Games.

Please review Section 3 of the Steam Subscriber Agreement for more information.
http://www.steampowered.com/index.php?area=subscriber_agreement

Support for this title is provided by the original developer or publisher. Please refer to the following article for more information on contacting the support team for this title:

Title: Train Simulator 2014
Link: http://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7515-OADM-0636&tpg=1

It is recommended that you complete any applicable steps on the page linked above. If you are still unable to resolve the issue, you click the blue "Contact Support" link provided in the article to contact the support department for this title.

As an alternate resource, please check Steam Discussions for other users that may have resolved this issue. You can find this game by using the search box near the top of the page:

http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/#games


[ME] I think you will find that under UK law the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 supercedes the "Steam Subscriber Agreement" as it requires that all good and services be of "Satisfactory Quality" and "As Described". As the Goods in question are not "As Described" due to the misleading nature of the product page, this falls under "Selling Under False Pretenses" section of the law. As such I am fully entitled to either a refund in full or "Store Credit" either of which I am willing to accept.

I would rather this be resolved amicably before getting in touch with Trading Standards - if you are unable to action this then you might wish to pass this on to your Manager or Supervisor to action instead.

[Steam Rep] Hello Sir,

The regulations you are citing do not apply to digital distribution subscriptions, electronic games, or downloadable content.

Additionally, this product is considered used as it has been installed and played.

If you are encountering technical issues with this game, you must troubleshoot that issue with the game’s support team.

[ME] Actually they do apply as Steam is a "Service" or "Digital Distribution Subscription" both of which are covered by the "Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982".
If your position is that Steam is above UK Law then I will have to get in touch with Trading Standards. If Steam is found to not be complying with aforementiond act then Steam may be liable for financial penalties up to 10% of total company turnover. This seems a bit much for what is such a small matter, which is why I would rather this be sorted out amicably.

[Steam Rep] Hello Sir,

As previously specified, these regulations you are citing do not apply to digital distribution subscriptions, electronic games, or downloadable content.

As with most software products, we do not offer refunds or exchanges on games, DLC or in-game items purchased on our website or through the Steam Client.

As a customer service gesture we can issue you store credit for the amount of your purchase into your Steam Wallet. The credit will also remove the title or item from your account.

Please confirm that you would like us to proceed with this credit.

[Jonj1611]

Having myself purchased a game from Steam which blatantly didn't work at all, must admit I was surprised due to having no issues with other games, I think this is something we need to do over here.

Steam's attitude is pretty disgusting really, there is little or no leeway and its been a long time coming I think

[Corky34]

So as a UK company, with a UK website selling in UK currency offer worldwide delivery I'm obliged to comply with Australian consumer law should an Australian citizen buy from me? What if an Australian citizen on holiday purchases something, are the afforded the same consumer protections?

I'm no lawyer but i think the the laws of the country where the trader is based apply, it's almost like the tax laws.
Question is can the ACCC prove that Valve the company is based in Australia.

[crossy]

The situation is similar here - I beat them over the head with UK Consumer law until they agreed to capitulate "As a Customer Service Gesture" ...
[interesting conversation snipped in the interests of saving space - read the original post]

Well done you!

This is maybe the kind of thing that someone like MoneySavingExpert could have as a template on their website. Although the Valve stuff sounds suspiciously like the usual "brainless CS rep reading from prepared script" - silly bunch of bar stewards. Talking about MSE, that's a common complaint on the site - that Brits just don't "do" complaining properly. It's too easy to write things off as a bad experience and try and move on. That said, good luck with getting the Kingdom's Trading Standards involved - I've not had good experiences in that area.

Thinking over lunch, wasn't there something - might have been a proposal from GATT - that stated that the powers-that-be were looking to harmonise so the laws of the country where the transaction was instigated from applied? Basically to prevent fly-by-nights from basing themselves in some law-forsaken banana republic and fleecing the punters horribly.

[semo]

Well done you!

This is maybe the kind of thing that someone like MoneySavingExpert could have as a template on their website. Although the Valve stuff sounds suspiciously like the usual "brainless CS rep reading from prepared script" - silly bunch of bar stewards. Talking about MSE, that's a common complaint on the site - that Brits just don't "do" complaining properly. It's too easy to write things off as a bad experience and try and move on. That said, good luck with getting the Kingdom's Trading Standards involved - I've not had good experiences in that area.

Thinking over lunch, wasn't there something - might have been a proposal from GATT - that stated that the powers-that-be were looking to harmonise so the laws of the country where the transaction was instigated from applied? Basically to prevent fly-by-nights from basing themselves in some law-forsaken banana republic and fleecing the punters horribly.

Trading standards, that old gem. Businesses have caught up to this bluff and know very well that they don't bother with civil matters. The average consumer has no tools to go past the corporate stonewall.

The above average consumer may try going through their CC company if their purchase was above £100. However, you need to get an independent professional report of the faulty good (for which you pay yourself if you can find an independent professional in the first place) and the CC company can initiate a chargeback. The other options are small claims or civil courts.

You can set trading standards against the dodgy shop owner selling cider to a yoof but other than that, they're not much use to us in everyday life.

[BobF64]

the CC company can initiate a chargeback.

There is an associated risk with that, Valve may close your account as a result, or worse, other companies will refuse to accept your card because you used charge backs in the past.

[Jonj1611]

While I can understand steam, how would any other company know you used a charge back?

[semo]

There is an associated risk with that, Valve may close your account as a result, or worse, other companies will refuse to accept your card because you used charge backs in the past.

Link?

In the case of steam, I doubt many people will spend more than one £100 in a single transaction and do you think that Steam will then go ahead and close a big spender account like that?