Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 29

Thread: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

  1. #1
    HEXUS.admin
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    31,709
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2,073 times in 719 posts

    Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    And the Windows 10 thread scheduler is "operating properly for Zen," says AMD.
    Read more.

  2. #2
    Two Places At Once Ozaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Sometimes UK
    Posts
    638
    Thanks
    86
    Thanked
    34 times in 33 posts
    • Ozaron's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI X570 Unify
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB Patriot Blackout @ 3800 CL16
      • Storage:
      • Toshiba X300 4TB (2), Samsung 850 Evo 500GB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire 5700XT, Sapphire R9 Fury Nitro
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic M12-II 620w
      • Case:
      • Corsair Obsidian 500D
      • Operating System:
      • W10 Enterprise 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Gigabyte G27QC
      • Internet:
      • 2.5 MB/s ↓ 0.86 MB/s ↑ ~20ms

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    What?

    So they've set a 20 deg C arbitrary buffer onto measured temps to get fans to work overtime, for reasons only they know. Thread scheduling is "fine" even though the CPU performs noticeably better on an older operating system that likely doesn't support all of Ryzen's features, PLUS no explanation as to why this is.

    Balanced power plan still hasn't received any Ryzen related modifications (though this is likely all Microsoft) and AMD refuse to accept that negative SMT scaling is in any way systematic or meaningful, despite the community saying otherwise, and believes "simple" changes are all that is required. So simple that they haven't arrived anywhere for anyone yet.

    Why did they bother?

    Edit: though to be fair Intel has had a very long time to get HT working properly on their side and while negative scaling isn't as bad, they have far from alleviated it, so maybe it's just the fundamental concept of increasing threads for lower single thread throughput that causes it. It could therefore be that Ryzen suffers more on single thread IPC when it deploys SMT threads to systemwide processes during gameplay. I don't know, someone with a bigger brain can explain it.
    Last edited by Ozaron; 14-03-2017 at 11:27 AM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,526
    Thanks
    504
    Thanked
    468 times in 326 posts

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Problems, what problems?

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    1,721
    Thanks
    197
    Thanked
    243 times in 223 posts
    • kompukare's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P8Z77-V LX
      • CPU:
      • Intel i5-3570K
      • Memory:
      • 4 x 8GB DDR3
      • Storage:
      • Samsung 850 EVo 500GB | Corsair MP510 960GB | 2 x WD 4TB spinners
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sappihre R7 260X 1GB (sic)
      • PSU:
      • Antec 650 Gold TruePower (Seasonic)
      • Case:
      • Aerocool DS 200 (silenced, 53.6 litres)l)
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10-64
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 x ViewSonic 27" 1440p

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Well, the 20°C offset only seems to apply to 'X' models.
    And the 'X' models are meant to feature a more aggressive XFR boosting depending on temps. So is a faster fan meant to allow a higher boost? Or if the CPU relies on this erroneous offset does this mean the boost is actually lower?

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Newcastle Upon Tyne
    Posts
    936
    Thanks
    54
    Thanked
    105 times in 72 posts
    • Jowsey's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asrock H81M-ITX
      • CPU:
      • Intel Xeon E3-1230V3
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair XMS3
      • Storage:
      • 256GB Crucial MX100 & 2TB Seagate Barracuda
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus GTX 770 DCUII 2GB
      • PSU:
      • EVGA SuperNova GS 550 watt
      • Case:
      • Phanteks Evolv ITX
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 64 bit
      • Internet:
      • Virgin Media 100Mb

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    I remember watching Tiny Ton Logans review of the 1800x and he said that there was something amiss as there was nowhere near enough heat being displaced from the case to account for the temperature reading of the cpu.

    Bit half bakes I guess but haven't AMD cpu's always been funny with how they report temperatures?

  6. #6
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    31,023
    Thanks
    1,870
    Thanked
    3,381 times in 2,718 posts
    • kalniel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
      • CPU:
      • Intel i9 9900k
      • Memory:
      • 32GB DDR4 3200 CL16
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Samsung 970Evo+ NVMe
      • Graphics card(s):
      • nVidia GTX 1060 6GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic 600W
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF 912
      • Operating System:
      • Win 10 Pro x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2721DGF
      • Internet:
      • rubbish

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Very odd. It's almost like they want to keep efficiency high by having the fans work harder than normal. Worst case would be that they can only cope with a lower tjMax, but I don't see why they wouldn't just lower it in that case - perhaps they thought about it and concluded it didn't fit well with existing fan profiles :/

  7. #7
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    ... So is a faster fan meant to allow a higher boost? Or if the CPU relies on this erroneous offset does this mean the boost is actually lower?
    For PWM CPU coolers the fan speeds are usually set by reference to a software-defined target temperature. Reporting a higher-than-actual temperature will force the fans to work harder, as they're actually trying to keep the CPU 20oC lower than the target. That means a cooler CPU, allowing for higher boosts. The CPU itself knows the real temperature then adjusts the figure it reports to the OS to force improved cooling.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    ... perhaps they thought about it and concluded it didn't fit well with existing fan profiles :/
    This would be my guess - they looked at existing fan profiles and decided that they didn't ramp up the speed fast enough to make best use of the dynamic frequency adjustment and XFR boost headroom that the CPUs had, so they came up with a simple hack to force better cooling.

    And of course we now know what the X stands for - Xtra-loud....

  8. #8
    Two Places At Once Ozaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Sometimes UK
    Posts
    638
    Thanks
    86
    Thanked
    34 times in 33 posts
    • Ozaron's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI X570 Unify
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB Patriot Blackout @ 3800 CL16
      • Storage:
      • Toshiba X300 4TB (2), Samsung 850 Evo 500GB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire 5700XT, Sapphire R9 Fury Nitro
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic M12-II 620w
      • Case:
      • Corsair Obsidian 500D
      • Operating System:
      • W10 Enterprise 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Gigabyte G27QC
      • Internet:
      • 2.5 MB/s ↓ 0.86 MB/s ↑ ~20ms

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    And of course we now know what the X stands for - Xtra-loud....
    So, turning off XFR reduces noise by a relatively significant margin? Or is the temps tweak something that cannot be switched off?

    Either way, XFR seems simultaneously brutish and underwhelming at this point.

  9. #9
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozaron View Post
    So, turning off XFR reduces noise by a relatively significant margin? Or is the temps tweak something that cannot be switched off? ...
    The temperature reporting seems hardwired in to the CPU, so turning XFR off will do nothing.

    Besides, my comment above might be a little too cynical - I've just posted this in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    ... My suspicion is that they've analysed some 95W rated coolers and found that they're only 95W capable at 100% fan speed, and typical fan profiles either won't hit 100%, or won't hit it at a low enough temperature. So to ensure adequate cooling in those circumstances they have to force the fans to ramp up earlier than usual, which means reporting a higher temperature than usual. ...
    which fits better with the comments made on AMD's blog anyway....

    EDIT

    Another thought has just occurred to me, based on CAT's speculation that the 1700 is binned for lower leakage and the 1700X/1800X are binned for higher leakage ... silicon leakage gets worse with higher temps, which in turn increases the voltage required for stable operation and therefore the power required to sustain the performance (which itself also causes an increase in temperatures, which increases the required voltage ... etc.). If CAT's right, forcing higher fan speeds on the X-versions of the chips to keep them cooler than reported would improve their leakage characteristics under normal use, thereby reducing the voltage and power requirements to keep them stable...
    Last edited by scaryjim; 14-03-2017 at 01:07 PM.

  10. #10
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    83
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2 times in 2 posts

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozaron View Post
    What?

    So they've set a 20 deg C arbitrary buffer onto measured temps to get fans to work overtime, for reasons only they know. Thread scheduling is "fine" even though the CPU performs noticeably better on an older operating system that likely doesn't support all of Ryzen's features, PLUS no explanation as to why this is.

    Balanced power plan still hasn't received any Ryzen related modifications (though this is likely all Microsoft) and AMD refuse to accept that negative SMT scaling is in any way systematic or meaningful, despite the community saying otherwise, and believes "simple" changes are all that is required. So simple that they haven't arrived anywhere for anyone yet.

    Why did they bother?

    Edit: though to be fair Intel has had a very long time to get HT working properly on their side and while negative scaling isn't as bad, they have far from alleviated it, so maybe it's just the fundamental concept of increasing threads for lower single thread throughput that causes it. It could therefore be that Ryzen suffers more on single thread IPC when it deploys SMT threads to systemwide processes during gameplay. I don't know, someone with a bigger brain can explain it.
    Still think a much-needed feature in modern OSes is a "disable SMT for this program" option to have the OS report an 8C8T processor to the software and have the scheduler lock the affinity of that software to primary cores only. Even with perfect SMT there is plenty of software that is disadvantaged by it, but it is a bit extreme to disable it globally.

    Perhaps software should have a thread profile for task schedulers to read and better assign threads as well, e.g. to assign heavy single threaded software to a core whilst keeping the associated SMT core clear of tasks.
    Last edited by CAPTAIN_ALLCAPS; 14-03-2017 at 01:18 PM. Reason: clarity
    CAPS LOCK IS NOT A BUTTON IT IS A WAY OF LIFE.

  11. #11
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    83
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2 times in 2 posts

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozaron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    And of course we now know what the X stands for - Xtra-loud....
    So, turning off XFR reduces noise by a relatively significant margin? Or is the temps tweak something that cannot be switched off?

    Either way, XFR seems simultaneously brutish and underwhelming at this point.
    I agree, XFR seems to be a constant source of trouble for minimal gains. Maybe it will improve in future versions less limited by a ~4GHz ceiling, but I honestly think they should have tried a BIOS selectable TDP instead - e.g. for the 1800X 3.6/4.0GHz @ 95W, 3.8/4.1GHz @ 140W, something else @ 65W.

    If it could be switched using a physical button like the old Turbo button on the front of the computer that would be great. Cool and quiet when browsing the internet - where the only serious load is some badly scripted ad chewing up 100% of a core - and full power when it is actually needed.
    Last edited by CAPTAIN_ALLCAPS; 14-03-2017 at 01:23 PM.
    CAPS LOCK IS NOT A BUTTON IT IS A WAY OF LIFE.

  12. #12
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    31,023
    Thanks
    1,870
    Thanked
    3,381 times in 2,718 posts
    • kalniel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
      • CPU:
      • Intel i9 9900k
      • Memory:
      • 32GB DDR4 3200 CL16
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Samsung 970Evo+ NVMe
      • Graphics card(s):
      • nVidia GTX 1060 6GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic 600W
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF 912
      • Operating System:
      • Win 10 Pro x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2721DGF
      • Internet:
      • rubbish

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by CAPTAIN_ALLCAPS View Post
    Still think a much-needed feature in modern OSes is a "disable SMT for this program" option to have the OS report an 8C8T processor to the software and have the scheduler lock the affinity of that software to primary cores only. Even with perfect SMT there is plenty of software that is disadvantaged by it, but it is a bit extreme to disable it globally.

    Perhaps software should have a thread profile for task schedulers to read and better assign threads as well, e.g. to assign heavy single threaded software to a core whilst keeping the associated SMT core clear of tasks.
    You can do it yourself with the /affinity commandline parameter, but it'd be nice to have a simple checkbox built into to the window's shortcut/program launcher.

  13. #13
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    ... it'd be nice to have a simple checkbox built into to the window's shortcut/program launcher.
    That would be pretty cool - good for some benchmarks, as well (iirc running wprime on less than max threads kills its performance completely).

  14. #14
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    83
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2 times in 2 posts

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CAPTAIN_ALLCAPS View Post
    Still think a much-needed feature in modern OSes is a "disable SMT for this program" option to have the OS report an 8C8T processor to the software and have the scheduler lock the affinity of that software to primary cores only. Even with perfect SMT there is plenty of software that is disadvantaged by it, but it is a bit extreme to disable it globally.

    Perhaps software should have a thread profile for task schedulers to read and better assign threads as well, e.g. to assign heavy single threaded software to a core whilst keeping the associated SMT core clear of tasks.
    You can do it yourself with the /affinity commandline parameter, but it'd be nice to have a simple checkbox built into to the window's shortcut/program launcher.
    This relies on starting the program with Run though, doesn't it? At least I haven't encountered a way to do this for executables started by another program. This is a problem in a lot of the software I used to use, which was usually lots of small independent executables tied together by a separate overarching GUI. It is also a problem for software like Steam games as they must be started through the Steam client (another reason to use GoG).

    Plus I would expect modern software to spawn threads according to the number of detected cores (certainly a couple of scientific programs I used do, though in those cases you can manually change the figure to prevent performance loss due to hyperthreading) so reporting 8C8T would be helpful if possible.

    Edit - if memory serves, doesn't running a program in Win98/WinXp compatibility mode lock the affinity to single threaded? So it is hardly novel or unknown, it just isn't done.
    Last edited by CAPTAIN_ALLCAPS; 14-03-2017 at 01:51 PM.
    CAPS LOCK IS NOT A BUTTON IT IS A WAY OF LIFE.

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    161
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    1 time in 1 post

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Here's a tip for AMD... Stop trying to to obfuscate real speed numbers, real core numbers, how hot the CPU actually is, how much power it actually uses, etc...

    Why hasn't AMD realized that this convoluted smoke screen they've been trying to build between their CPUs and consumers to hide their shortcomings just isn't working? Stop trying to scam the modern computer user. Just build normal multi-purpose CPUs like Intel makes you'll be successful in the market.

  16. #16
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    31,023
    Thanks
    1,870
    Thanked
    3,381 times in 2,718 posts
    • kalniel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
      • CPU:
      • Intel i9 9900k
      • Memory:
      • 32GB DDR4 3200 CL16
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Samsung 970Evo+ NVMe
      • Graphics card(s):
      • nVidia GTX 1060 6GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic 600W
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF 912
      • Operating System:
      • Win 10 Pro x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2721DGF
      • Internet:
      • rubbish

    Re: Some AMD Ryzen CPUs don't run as hot as is reported

    Quote Originally Posted by DaMoot View Post
    Here's a tip for AMD... Stop trying to to obfuscate real speed numbers, real core numbers, how hot the CPU actually is, how much power it actually uses, etc...

    Why hasn't AMD realized that this convoluted smoke screen they've been trying to build between their CPUs and consumers to hide their shortcomings just isn't working? Stop trying to scam the modern computer user.
    Um, the CPUs are running *cooler* than reported. That's no scam, nor is there any question of frequency, core numbers etc. Not sure where you're getting any of that from.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •