Help - Cancelled 3 last year & just got a final demand!

[brody77]

Hi all,

I was a customer of 3 for my mobile until Oct 2007.
I have a bill from them confirming my account was cancelled on 19 Oct 2007, and final payment for my notice period would be taken around 9th Nov 2007.


Yesterday - 5th June 2008 - I came home to a letter from them demanding payment of £92 within 7 days or they'd start debt collection proceedings.

I was dumfounded.
As I said, I cancelled my account in Oct 2007.

I rang my bank, who confirmed the last payment they took was 3rd Oct 2007 for my normal monthly payment.
BUT - they also confirmed 3 themselves cancelled the direct debit around 24th Oct 2007.

So I rang the collections number on the letter from 3. Surprisingly, it was an asian woman with very broken English who answered.
I gave her the account number on the letter, then laughed out loud when she asked for my password - "I haven't been a customer since Oct 2007" I said, "How am I supposed to remember that?"

So we went through data protection questions (actually, she only asked 2)
Then immediately she goes into a scripted response telling me I owe £92 and can I pay it using a debit or credit card right now.
I tell her no, of course I can't - I don't have £92 to spare.
So then (I can't get over this one) she says "do you have a friend or relative who can make the payment for you just now"!!

I was gobsmacked.

I asked her why they never took the final payment - she advised they cancelled the direct debit "for security reasons".
I asked her why would they do that when they knew I still had a payment to make? "I do apologise"
I asked her why they cancelled the DD when I have a letter from them stating they will take a DD final payment around 9th Nov 2007? "I do apologise".
I asked her why it took them over 8 months to send me a letter. "I do apologise".
I asked her why the letter claims they previously contact me when they didn't. "I do apologise".

(anyone notice a trend here?)

So I tell her I've had enough. I can't afford to pay that, but if they want I can pay it over a couple months, half now, half when I next get paid.
She says she'd need to get a payment plan approved first.
Unbelievable.

So apparently this can take 3 to 5 working days, and "the collections process will continue til you make a payment" - so I risk having debt collectors on me in the meantime!

I asked her to confirm the phone number on file. She reads back my home phone. I hit back with "ok, you have my number. WHY did you not call me at any point to advise of the arrears?" - can you guess what she said? Yep.

At that point, I told her to shove her apologies - I wanted help, not some fool who couldn't answer my questions.

Has anyone else had similar issues with these idiots?
Do I have any grounds to tell them where to go?

As I mentioned, I'm trying to move home just now & worry this could affect me if I go to buy a cooker or anything on credit.

Thanks in advance

[Mossy]

I advise you get them paid I know its not good but in the long run it would be better to pay them and not argue over £92 as you will come off worse in this case and its not worth it.

[brody77]

I advise you get them paid I know its not good but in the long run it would be better to pay them and not argue over £92 as you will come off worse in this case and its not worth it.

Yeah, but as I said - I can't afford to pay it in one go, and in the time it takes them to get a "payment plan" agreed I could have debt collectors on my case.

All I asked her was to pay half now & half after I get paid on 26th June.

I'd still like to figure out how to formally complain over the time it's taken them to chase this.
Don't know how they get away with it.

[Mossy]

Funny thing is it can effect your credit and I have 1st hand experience, I don't know your finances but as I said its is kind of their fault for not chasing the Monies in due time but they dont care about you credit and how much money you have as long as they get what they are owed. Seriously try and get it paid iif you can dude.

[Saracen]

The first thing to realise is that a "debt collector" and a "bailiff" are very different. A "bailiff" is a court-appointed official collecting on behalf of a court (such as for a fine) or appointed by a court (via a "warrant of execution" to help collect a court-proved debt). In other words, unless it's via a court, it isn't a bailiff.

A debt collector is just someone trying to get you to pay your debt. The bailiff has considerable legal powers. The debt collector very much less so, including that they do NOT have the power to enter your home or seize possessions, without a court order.

The next thing to remember is that anyone (such as 3) offering credit does so under a licence, and getting (and keeping) that licence requires that they act responsibly in collecting debts. That original creditor can and will be held responsible for the actions of third-parties, and that credit licence can be revoked. In other words, if the people 3 employ go too far out of order, too often, 3 could lose their credit licence.

Next, there are a LONG list of things that are outside the scope of good practice for debt collectors, including :-

- failure to refer on to the creditor reasonable offers to pay by instalments

- passing on debtor's details to debt management companies without the debtor's "prior informed consent"

- not providing status of the debt, such as statements, when reasonably requested

- refusing to deal with a appointed or authorised third party, such as Citizen's Advice or a money advisor

-acting in a way likely to be embarrassing to the debtor, either deliberator or through lack of care

- failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued

- not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.



There are many, MANY more. And that last one, by the way, is a direct quote fro m the Office of Fair Trading, categorised as "unfair practice" under the section "Deceptive and/or unfair methods".


So, my first real question, brody, is ..... do you owe the amount claimed? I mean, has it been loaded with charges, or is that the amount you should have paid to 3, had they collected what they should have?

If it is not, and you genuinely weren't aware of this, I'd say you have a case for complaint, and to pay the original debt, if the facts are as you described, in that the fault lies with 3 for cancelling the DD. On the other hand, from what you said, you were told that a payment was due in November, and were able to check that it was taken .... and apparently didn't. But I would have said you should have received several reminders before this went to a debt collection agency.

My next question, regardless of whether this is the actual amount of the debt to 3 or not is whether you have the stomach for a fight. If not, if you just want this to go away, then the best bet is to pay up, as quickly as possible. BUT .... check your credit record, too. If this debt has been unfairly placed with a debt collection agency, if 3 were indeed responsible for not contacting you, then you may want to challenge that, because especially in today's climate, black marks on credit records can have consequences should you want a mortgage, car loan, etc .... or possibly even a new mobile phone contract.

So, I think you need to think about whether you want this just to go away, or to fight it.

If you have the stomach for a fight, then the type of point I made above provides the ammunition for doing so. In that case, I'd suggest doing your research, perhaps getting advice (Google will throw up several organisations that can point you in the right direction), as no doubt can Citizen's Advice. OR contact a solicitor. It'll cost you, but it WILL get this debt collector to back off in a hurry. For a start, one of the things they cannot do is continue to pursue you directly after being advised that you have appointed an advisor to handle this.

But if you do decide to fight, I'd suggest not fighting at all against whatever the original debt to 3 was. Pay that, in full or by reasonable instalment, as soon as possible.

Next, read through your original post, work out where the issues actually lie and what is just a whinge, and concentrate on the issues. For instance, that same good practice I mentioned above means that the debt collector MUST ensure that they are dealing with the debtor before disclosing details of the debt. If they were to just start discussing that there is an outstanding debt without doing so, and it turned out that the person that had rung saying they were you wasn't you,. they'd not only be breaking good practice, but the Data Protection Act.

So, pick the points you want to battle. A whinge on here is fine, and good stress relief (), but get over that kind of thing when dealing with either 3 or a debt collector .... if indeed a debt collector is yet involved.

You say you rang the collections number on the letter. Given what you've said, it looks to me like it's a fair chance that you were speaking to the credit control team at 3. I have NO knowledge of 3, but for some people in the credit control team at a medium or large company to be their "legal" team is common practice. All it often means is that it's been identified by credit control as being outside their usual debt parameter, and is showing up as a bit "aged". They will usually spend at least some time chasing it internally before thinking about passing it to an outside agency, simply because it costs them a percentage of the debt to do that.

So, there's a good chance, whatever the purported company name and phone number, and whatever they answer on the phone, that you're talking to 3 and that any debt collection visit is a LONG way off yet.


Anyways, all this boils down to is that your bet bet is to pay whatever should have been paid originally, as fast as possible. But, don't get too bogged down or intimidated by the notion of debt collectors. At the end of the day, until or unless a court enforces a debt and grants a warrant of execution, the chances of you being confronted by someone with any authority to do anything except ask for money is effectively zero, and even that sounds a way off yet, whatever impression they may give you.

One final point. If you are now being pursued by an actual debt collection agency, and in fact, even if you aren't, I'd do everything in writing from this point, and if you do or agree ANYTHING with them over the phone, immediately confirm it in writing. If they see that you :-

a) show signs of understanding where the line is between what they can and can't do, and
b) are clearly building an evidence trail

they're a LOT less likely to try it on or to bullpoop you, because of the points made above.

You will find some helpful advice on DirectGov and a PDF from the Office of Fair Trading on guidance about what is and is not acceptable behaviour for a debt collector or credit here.

[brody77]

Wow.

That is quite possibly the most amazing thing I've ever read.

I tip my hat - you sir, are a legend!

In all honesty, I don't have the time - or the tolerance - for a fight with them.
The amount they are chasing is the exact amount they were supposed to take in November but didn't.

As much as I'm mightily angry that their timing couldn't be any worse (who has spare money available when trying to move home?) - I'm now more peeved that I offered to pay half today & half on 26th June & they wouldn't accept that there & then. I have to wait for them to get back to me.

All this hassle just reminds me why I left 3 in the first place - the customer service is without doubt the worst I've ever experienced.

Don't know if it's worth my while ringing again & trying to speak to someone who understands English. I know that isn't too politically correct of me, but it's a true statement I feel.

And I've discovered a guy in work has received an identical letter yesterday as well - so I can only imagine they are doing some kind of audit on old accounts!

[GoNz0]

find the say no to 0870 website and see if you can get a uk number, or phone back and insist a manager calls you from the UK as they cant speak english.

its not your problem they waited so long and they dont really have a leg to stand on if they waited so long to contact you, consumeractiongroup website may also be of use.

[Blitzen]

Although the tactics were underhand by Three, you still owed them money as the DD was cancelled before the final payment.

Why didnt you contact them last year?

Its their fault the DD was cancelled but its not their fault if you knew an outstanding balance was owed and you didnt find out how to pay it.

All this hassle just reminds me why I left 3 in the first place - the customer service is without doubt the worst I've ever experienced.

I cant understand that statement.
All Three are doing (whether they are acting responsibly or not is another matter) are chasing a debt that you owe. You havent disputed that you owe the cash, but (and i apologise if i am wrong), just chose to ignore it after the DD was cancelled.

The only time the customer service was bad is when they cancelled the DD early. The rest im afraid is your own doing.

[brody77]

Although the tactics were underhand by Three, you still owed them money as the DD was cancelled before the final payment.

Why didnt you contact them last year?

Its their fault the DD was cancelled but its not their fault if you knew an outstanding balance was owed and you didnt find out how to pay it.


I cant understand that statement.
All Three are doing (whether they are acting responsibly or not is another matter) are chasing a debt that you owe. You havent disputed that you owe the cash, but (and i apologise if i am wrong), just chose to ignore it after the DD was cancelled.

The only time the customer service was bad is when they cancelled the DD early. The rest im afraid is your own doing.

Yes, I knew I owed them a final payment.
No, I didn't check to make sure they'd taken it.
And I didn't know they had cancelled the direct debit until I spoke to my bank this morning.
As stated before - they did not contact me ONCE to advise I still owed them money until I received a random letter yesterday.
Why didn't I contact them last year? Because I thought it was taken care of as I didn't see any more direct debit payments coming off for 3.

I relied on them to take the payment - isn't that the whole point of direct debit? You set it up so you don't have to worry about not making your payments.

As for ignoring it - that is most certainly not the case. I have a bill in front of me saying "thank you for paying by direct debit. We'll take payment from your account around 9th November 2007". Nowhere does it say "You will have to contact us to make a payment as we have cancelled your direct debit". Had they given me correct advice at the time, I wouldn't be writing this now.

Anyway, all I can do now is sit & wait for them to phone me back to get this sorted out & never deal with them again.

Oh, and the customer service is truly dreadful - in my experience at least - the girl this morning couldn't answer a single query I had, and as stated previously, just kept saying "I do apologise" over and over.

I guess if I take anything from this, it's not to trust companies to lift direct debits correctly.
I'll be scrutinising my statements a lot more carefully from now on.

But I 100% stand by my comment that they should have been in touch long before now - maybe it was only picked up in an audit or something.

[TeePee]

Call their customer service line and select the option that involves cancelling or disconnecting. With many companies, this will put you through to a retentions department, located in the West. I have to do this with my cable internet company, and I simply use their retentions dept for any general customer service issues.

[Saracen]

Although the tactics were underhand by Three, you still owed them money as the DD was cancelled before the final payment.

Why didnt you contact them last year?

Its their fault the DD was cancelled but its not their fault if you knew an outstanding balance was owed and you didnt find out how to pay it.


I cant understand that statement.
All Three are doing (whether they are acting responsibly or not is another matter) are chasing a debt that you owe. You havent disputed that you owe the cash, but (and i apologise if i am wrong), just chose to ignore it after the DD was cancelled.

The only time the customer service was bad is when they cancelled the DD early. The rest im afraid is your own doing.

I understand where you're coming from, and to a point I agree. We should all, in an ideal world, keep a careful track of our finances, and would know when an expected payment wasn't taken.

I don't do that though, and I don't know many (read "any") who do, and would be certain to pick up that a payment they said they would take wasn't. Hell, NTL got away with overcharging me for months before I got around to checking the bills and screeching about it.


However, given that the picture painted in the opening post is correct, it looks like 3 said (in writing, no less) that the final payment would be taken by DD, then cancelled the DD early, then sat on their hands for 6 months, then sent out a nasty letter threatening legal action if payment wasn't received within 7 days, and did so without any prior attempts to remind or chase. And if that is what they did, then it looks to me like a clear breach of the OFT rules for debt collecting, and grounds for a complaint.

And, again if the facts are as portrayed (and, obviously, I have no idea), it sounds from what;'s being said as if all they needed to send brody77 was a letter (prettied up a bit, obviously) saying

"Sorry, we goofed and didn't collect our last payment. £92 is still outstanding from last year. Could you settle ASAP please".

Instead, it's "pay up within 7 days or we'll take you to court" with silent overtones of "you debt-dodging scumbag, you" thrown in. Wholly unnecessary threats, and an offensive tone, UNLESS previous requests for payment had been ignored, especially as it seems the original screw-up was theirs.


So it's not just that the DD cancellation was bad customer service, but that their way of dealing with it now is terrible.

Were it me, and I'd left a company because, perhaps, I'd got a better deal, I might go back in future times times if they were the best deal available. But if they treated me like that, hell would freeze over and George Bush would join a hippy commune before I'd ever give them the time of day again, let alone any more custom. And I'd be on forums like this relating the tale too, as a cautionary warning to other customers and potential customers. Bad customer service, and what looks like outrageous arrogance, don't do them any favours.

[mightymouse]

3 always make these kinds of error. the same thing happened to me, cancelled the account and then half a year later they said that i didnt pay for the last bill. i told them i will check with my bank first and she said if you dont then i will send your account to bill collectors. i ask if this was a threat and she said no of course i said to her that i need to make sure before paying since i dont know why they cancelled the DD without taking the money so its not my problem. .... da di da di da..... she said she will send the dogs on me i said ok i am in the middle of moving out of my flat (honestly i was), she asked for my new address i said no and i hung up. i checked all my bills and called 3 a week later and this time i managed to get some scottish dude. he said dont worry about the last call apologies for her actions and said no dogs were sent (who knows i dont live there anymore). paid with my credit card end of story.

i wouldnt worry too much cuz in the end they'd have to prove to the court that they did indeed tried to contact you beforehand to resolve it amidcably. waiting half a year and then sending a letter with a threat is not very amidcable. also i dont remember but i think there is a minimum amount before they are willing to pay thousands to bring you to court.

also like some of the other guys mentioned here dont pay for any charges!!

[brody77]

Well that's me paid half of it to them.
But apparently if I don't ring them before 28th June to settle, "collections proceedings will recommence".

I really like how the onus is on me to ring them, when it was them who made the mistake.

As one of the others posted, hell will freeze over before I go near these clowns again.

I might also look at the OFT thing suggested, just to have an official complaint logged.