Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 17 to 23 of 23

Thread: Apple ipod knackered, apple won't replace - advice needed.

  1. #17
    Senior Member oolon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,294
    Thanks
    150
    Thanked
    302 times in 248 posts
    • oolon's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P6T6
      • CPU:
      • Xeon w3680
      • Memory:
      • 3*4GB Kingston ECC
      • Storage:
      • 160GB Intel G2 SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • XFX HD6970 2GB
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX850
      • Case:
      • Antec P183
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Ultimate and Centos 5
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 2408WFP
      • Internet:
      • Be* Unlimied 6 down/1.2 up

    Re: Apple ipod knackered, apple won't replace - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrt9888 View Post
    I think they didn't do anything wrong, its over a year old so its not in warranty. If you bought a mp3 player from somewhere else they would tell you its out of warranty too.
    My gf lost the back of her creative mp3 player, it was well out of warranty, when i spoke to them I expect a charge for the replacement however they just sent me one for free.

    Nintendo I had a wiimote break just out of warranty phoned up Nintendo and they say it did matter, it was close enough and replaced it anyway.

    Sony I had a Viao break inside warranty, they refused to fix it as the manufacturing date had been 6 months previous, so screwed me over and want 20 quid to even talk about a fault. There loss that was 9 years ago and the last Sony product that I bought.
    (\__/) All I wanted in the end was world domination and a whole lot of money to spend. - NMA
    (='.*=)
    (")_(*)

  2. #18
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Apple ipod knackered, apple won't replace - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_B View Post
    ....

    I'm suprised Saracen hasn't posted ....
    Sorry, been busy.

    First, the caveat, as I do regularly .... I'm not a lawyer. What follows is personal opinion, not legal advice, either from me or HEXUS.

    That said ....

    Quote Originally Posted by G4Z View Post
    Pretty sure that in the UK 12 months is the minimum manufacturers warranty for electrical goods by law.
    As I understand it, there is no legal minimum for a warranty.

    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    UK law says warranties should really last 6 months, assuming we're being realistic (i.e. electricals, as opposed to food). Beyond that, there's no guarantees, unless you can prove it was inherently faulty when you bought it, and you can convince someone that it hasn't lasted a reasonable length of time.

    In real life, relating to small purchases such as this, it might as well be 6 months under law.
    And it certainly isn't 6 months. You're getting confused between two things there, and I'll try to clear it up.



    First, the broad situation between shops and manufacturers, because they have different liabilities.

    Neither are, as I understand it, required to offer a warranty. Many do, and for good reason, but they don't have to. Until a few years ago, manufacturer warranties were of dubious legal enforceability, but now they are enforceable, within a few limits. Mainly, if a manufacturer offers a warranty, and the consumer knew of it and relied on it, then with a restriction or two, they can be held to it in a court.

    But, as a manufacturer has no direct contract (unless they're a retailer as well) they aren't exposed to the usual consumer protection legislation, like the Sale of Goods Act.

    The retailer has much the same exposure are a manufacturer in relation to warranty, i.e. they don't have to offer one but if they do, you can enforce it but, in addition, there's the fairly extensive protection from the Sale of Goods Act, and the various bits of supplementary legislation that have expanded and amended it.

    A warranty will vary pretty widely in scope, and in exclusions, from manufacturer to manufacturer. It will often be wider in scope than the SoGA protection, and may be for more or less time, but the time limit if usually very clearly defined. It might be three months, or ten years, and how long you get will depend on how the manufacturer sees the risk of having to meet it, and perhaps on marketing considerations like repairing a reputation for faults. MS's extension of their warranty on XBOXs over the RROD fiasco is a good example, and was mainly (IMHO) about repairing PR damage.

    The SoGA protection, on the other hand, only offers protection from faults if they were inherent at the time of sale. If it was faulty components, poor materials or workmanship, etc, then the fault was inherent even if it didn't become visible for months, or perhaps years.

    How long does SoGA protection last? Well, it's a combination of two factors .... a six year time limit (England and Wales, but a bit different in Scotland) on taking legal action, so while the notional liability might extend beyond that, the ability to get it before a court doesn't. So, the maximum period you're going to be able to take a SoGA action to court is 6 years, but that doesn't mean every item is expected to last 6 years.

    How long is a product expected to last? Well, a "reasonable" time. What does that mean? Whatever you can convince a court it means in a given set of circumstances. There are some broad guidelines, but no categoric answers, because it does depend on the exact nature of the goods and the circumstances of the contract. If I buy a DSLR camera and it's for private, personal use and gets used once every few weeks for a dozen shots, would I expect it to last longer, in time terms, than if I was a paparazzi machine-gunning images all say long? Or if I was a polar explorer and it was subjected to extremes of cold (or knocks, if I was a mountaineer lugging it up and down mountains)?

    Is it reasonable to directly compare a TV and a washing machine? After all, washing machines have electrics (and these days, electronics) but they are primarily mechanical devices, and the usual failures are bearings, motors, and pipes and hoses. Personally, I expect better life of a decent TV, mainly because it hasn't got all that physical movement and stress, and isn't slurping loads of water and mildly corrosive chemicals about all the time. And beyond that, is a washing machine used once a fortnight by an elderly widow expected to last the same number of years as a machine used twice a day by a family of 6, with several young kids?

    So, in SoGA terms, the gods should last a "reasonable" time, taking all factors into account, subject to what is essentially, and in effect, a 6-year maximum.

    There's also regularly confusion over two other time limits .... 6 months and two years.

    Taking the 6 months first .... the SoGA says that a fault will be presumed to have been inherent for the first 6 months after sale unless the seller can prove it was not. So, within the first 6 months, the seller is liable even for consumer abuse of the product unless they can prove it was abuse. But after 6 months, that burden of proof reverses (and reverts to what it used to be from day 1) and the fault is presumed not to have been inherent unless the consumer can prove it was.

    What does the consumer need to do to "prove" it? Satisfy the court, on balance of probability that the fault was inherent. In practical terms, that will often mean getting (and paying for) an independent engineer's report on the nature of the problem. If doing so, check out the procedure first, because while the consumer pays for it (and gets it back if they win) the engineer is actually really working on behalf of the court, so you do need to follow the mandated process in getting it, or it likely won't be considered. But there's nothing that says that's mandatory, and it might be that a large volume of faults of a similar nature (like the XBox RROD) would provide adequate "proof", given that it's only to "balance of probability" standards, to satisfy a court. As with how long "reasonable" is, only a court can decide, in a given case, precisely what constitutes adequate proof.

    Next, the two-year time limit. There's a popular myth, based on EU legislation, that all warranties must be two years. It's poppycock, and it's based on a misinterpretation of a specific EU directive mandating two years, but what that directive is referring to is common standards among member states on the minimum standards (and not just in time limits) of EU state consumer protection legislation. It uses the term warranty, but it's not using it in the commonly understood way, but rather, as a legal term.

    So, that EU directive requires consumer legislation to provide legal recourse over inherent fault, for example, for at least two years. UK legislation has provided that coverage for 6 years (or a bit different in Scotland) for years (at least back to the 1979 SoGA), so requiring two years doesn't affect us when we already have 6 years.



    Where does all this leave G4Z?

    Well, in terms of manufacturer warranty, if it's expired it's expired, and while you can appeal to their sense of decency, if they have one, you can't force them to do much.

    In terms of SoGA, it's an issue for the retailer and you'll be relying on the provisions of the SoGA that a product should last a reasonable length of time, and that if it doesn't, the reason it doesn't is an "inherent fault". If the controls are failing because you're heavy-anded with them, then it's tough. If they failed because they're so flimsy as to not be able to withstand a reasonable level of normal use, then you have a case ..... if you can prove that.


    So the long and the short is that while a failure of a fairly expensive device like that is irritating as hell, and given that I take good care of equipment, I'd be very unhappy if it failed in 18 months, is it worth pursuing through Small Claims court? What will you get if you win? Either a replacement or repair, subject or which may be impossible or disproportionately expensive, or perhaps a refund which may well be a partial refund.

    It may be with a device like that that repairing it is disproportionately expensive, or if it's not a current model (and I don't keep up with iPod variations) it may not be possible. In which case, you'll get a refund, and a deduction would usually be made to reflect the use you have had. if the iPod had an expected "reasonable" life of 3 years, and it failed after 18 months, then you've had 18/36ths of the usage you should have expected, so will likely get (assuming you win the case) 50% of the purchase price back.

    If they've offered a like-for-like replacement for £100, it may be that that would be seen as a reasonable offer. The 10% on a new one strikes me as a bit of an insult personally, but if you've got a direct replacement for £100, that may well be more or less what any court would order in refund, so you have a choice of :-

    - pay £100 and have a working, similar iPod
    - fight, and if you win, get an award of something like that (plus costs) and not have a working iPod.

    The offer has an element of certainty to it, and so doesn't involve either the risk of losing the court case (and ending up having no refund and no working iPod), or having to put up with the hassle and wasted time involved in fighting it.


    Is it worth the hassle of a court case over the potential partial refund. IMHO, financially, not a chance in hell. But then, the financial aspects aren't the only ones that might drive a court case. More than once (three, IIRC), I've threatened legal action over smaller amounts than that, and I flippin' well meant it, too. Once was a insurance company over about £30, because they had messed me about for months and months, and dicked about with their offers (for about £4000) and I only incurred that £30 precisely because they dicked about for so long. So my attitude at that point was on principle .... if they'd been reasonable with me, I wouldn't have bothered being awkward, but they had me so angry that by the time that last offered arrived, either they settled in full, and not a single penny less, or it was going to court and I was distinctly hoping for the latter.

    But would I pursue this that far over a broken iPod? I very much doubt it. I'd either pay the £100 and get the replacement, or tell Apple precisely where to shove this, and all future products they might produce, and go buy an alternative from someone else. In fact, personally, on MP3 players, I would have bought an alternative in the first place, the only advantage to an iPod in my eyes being the vast range of third-party offerings to partner it, and I can usually get around that anyway.

    So were it me, I'd probably dump it in a bin, boycott Apple from now on, and buy something else to replace it. When I bought my last MP3 player, I went Creative anyway, because I much preferred the spec, because I preferred the sound, because it was a fair bit cheaper, and because it wasn't an iPod.

  3. Received thanks from:

    G4Z (18-11-2010)

  4. #19
    ALT0153™ Rob_B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    6,088
    Thanks
    345
    Thanked
    700 times in 484 posts

    Re: Apple ipod knackered, apple won't replace - advice needed.

    That's the sort of post I expected
    Too busy for HEXUS though? Shame on you! What's more important? Socialising or working & putting food on the table or answering posts on consumer law (which you love, admit it )

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    <Snip, snip, snip>
    So were it me, I'd probably dump it in a bin, boycott Apple from now on, and buy something else to replace it. When I bought my last MP3 player, I went Creative anyway, because I much preferred the spec, because I preferred the sound, because it was a fair bit cheaper, and because it wasn't an iPod.
    But what if the Creative player becomes faulty within 18months? Would you boycott them too? Every item will fail for someone at some point so where is the line for thinking 'ok, I'll live with it' or 'I'm never buying XXX brand again' ? I'm not sure where I'd stand with that, I've had many items fail on me but more often than not I've pre-planned & got some sort of coverage. If I didn't then there would be a LOT of brands I wouldn't touch with a barge pole!

    Don't forget some banks provide extended warranties for items bought if you have certain packaged accounts or credit cards, I'm pretty sure I get +1yr warranty if I buy something over £100 with my RBS CC (warranty then with RBS not the original seller/manufacturer) worth looking into next time? Get a card just to buy certain goods, pay it off in full & reap the benefits -useless information for you in the current situation but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it!

  5. #20
    jim
    jim is online now
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,435
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked
    1,639 times in 1,304 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: Apple ipod knackered, apple won't replace - advice needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And it certainly isn't 6 months. You're getting confused between two things there, and I'll try to clear it up.
    You caught me, I was trying to be brief

    What I'm getting at is that if you've bought something for £100 or so, and we're ignoring any additional warranty - as far as the law is concerned, the warranty might as well be 6 months long. Under 6 months, and it's fairly unlikely that the supplier is going to go to any great length to prove that you broke it (and if you did, why are you complaining?), and over six months, it would be a bit odd to start legal proceedings and getting engineers' reports etc for the sake of a £100 electrical item, unless there were other factors involved, obviously.

    A gross oversimplification? Probably, but in cases like this it's the likely scenario. As before, warranties are a completely different kettle of fish, but SOGA isn't all that helpful to the consumer (in my eyes) with relatively low-value technical items like iPods.
    Last edited by jim; 18-11-2010 at 04:45 PM.

  6. #21
    G4Z
    G4Z is offline
    I'dlikesomebuuuurgazzzzzz G4Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    geordieland
    Posts
    3,172
    Thanks
    225
    Thanked
    141 times in 93 posts
    • G4Z's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte GA 965P-DS3
      • CPU:
      • Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600
      • Memory:
      • 4gb DDR2 5300
      • Storage:
      • 2.5Tb
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Gigabyte HD4870 512mb
      • PSU:
      • Tagan 470W
      • Case:
      • Thermaltake Tsunami Dream
      • Operating System:
      • Vista 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dual Acer 24" TFT's
      • Internet:
      • 16mb sky ADSL2

    Re: Apple ipod knackered, apple won't replace - advice needed.

    In fairness it isn't the fact that the item has gone faulty that has me shaking my fist at apple its their response to it.

    If they want to lose me as a customer then fine, I am sure they can do without me and an offer like that is exactly the way to do it. There is no way I am going to chuck another £100 at another 2G ipod, what about if/when that fails in 18 months. what's that another £100? I have had many mp3 players and portable devices and this one has died faster than any of them (except for my first desire which died in 3 weeks but was replaced there and then) and was way more expensive than any other mp3 player I have bought.

    Archos or something next then I suppose! Though I may still write a letter of complaint to Apple telling them how much they suck.
    HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY

  7. #22
    Senior Member Stringent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Neverland
    Posts
    5,227
    Thanks
    45
    Thanked
    155 times in 117 posts
    • Stringent's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Intel DQ57TM
      • CPU:
      • Intel i5 760
      • Memory:
      • 8GB
      • Storage:
      • 1TB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • NVIDIA Geforce 260GTX
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX620
      • Case:
      • Coolermaster Centurion
      • Operating System:
      • Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dual Iiyama 24"
      • Internet:
      • Patchy

    Re: Apple ipod knackered, apple won't replace - advice needed.

    Sell it on eBay as 'slightly used' ...

  8. #23
    DILLIGAF GoNz0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Derby
    Posts
    10,872
    Thanks
    632
    Thanked
    1,192 times in 945 posts
    • GoNz0's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Rampage V Extreme
      • CPU:
      • i7 something X99 based
      • Memory:
      • 16gb GSkill
      • Storage:
      • 4 SSD's + WD Red
      • Graphics card(s):
      • GTX980 Strix WC
      • PSU:
      • Enermax Galaxy 1250 (9 years and counting)
      • Case:
      • Corsair 900D
      • Operating System:
      • win10 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 24"
      • Internet:
      • 220mb Cable

    Re: Apple ipod knackered, apple won't replace - advice needed.

    if you want it fixed i can suggest this company

    https://www.ipod-surgery.co.uk/aboutequinox.aspx

    i work for the main company (Equinox) so i know its a legit outfit

    Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack
    off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

  9. Received thanks from:

    G4Z (22-11-2010)

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •