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Thread: HTC Lose Apple Case...

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Kind of Relevant in so far as The innovation of apple:

    http://androidheadlines.com/images/y...en_uoder_0.jpg

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    And this is why I feel Apple are being anti-competitive by suing Google's partner companies. Let's not forget Motorola have been sued over the Xoom as well.
    You can't be 'anti-competitive' by protecting your IP. You either lose, in which case nothing 'anti-competitive' happens, or you win, in which case the other side should not have copied.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    so you base your opinions on what the courts decide?

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    so you base your opinions on what the courts decide?
    Why would we do any different? It's not for us to decide who has or hasn't infringed upon someones IP.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    All the anger and vitriol at Apple here is completely misdirected, and mostly ill informed. Apple don't have a patent for a "Rectangular touch screen phone" - even the american patent office isn't /that/ stupid - they have the patents on all the smaller parts of technology that are included in the devices and software. Things like the swipe gestures (and actually how they work - not the concept of a gesture itself), which was the real patent at the heart of the recent Samsung Vs Apple debate - no matter what the press and anti apple people (who are just as bad as the fanboys) try and tell you.

    Your anger should really be faced towards the US patent office - they are the ones who granted all of these patents. They are the ones who said "OK Apple you can have the rights to this technology". All that Apple are doing is defending these patents, as they are legally and morally obliged to do. Microsoft do this. Samsung do this. HTC do this (as shown by the article). In fact even the most benevolent and open companies in the world do this..they all exist to make money and will all do so ruthlessly within the realms of the law. Business is tough, and to succeed you either need lots of luck, or to be as cut throat and black and white as the rest of them.

    Apple are not "stifling" the competition/market any more than anyone else is - the competition need to innovate to come up with a superior product to Apple..and people like HTC and Samsung are trying to do so. Android isn't the answer to taking them down, and nor is windows phone 7 at the moment..both are just not what the wider public want at the moment, but that is hardly Apples fault. As it happens Apple have already made their first mistake by not releasing an iPhone 5 - the competition really needs to jump on this as there are many people (me included - I moved to WP7) ready to jump ship should there be a better gadget phone out there.

    So, don't just sit and moan that a company (which happens to be HTC in this case actually, but for some reason you all jumped on Apple) is suing another one because the US Patent office granted them a patent - instead you should be moaning that the competition isn't bothering to innovate to try and improve on what Apple can do.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Irrevelent because their utility is different.

    When one of the lawsuits is about 'Look and feel', what they're used for is irrelevant.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Quote Originally Posted by mrochester View Post
    You can't be 'anti-competitive' by protecting your IP. You either lose, in which case nothing 'anti-competitive' happens, or you win, in which case the other side should not have copied.
    Yes every company has a right to protect their IP, which of course is not anti-competitive. But if you look at the patent I highlighted in my previous post Apple are protecting their IP (in this case the iPad) because the HTC Flyer infringes that particular patent. Now that means Apple should sue every single tablet manufacturer based on that patent and not just HTC and select others. In fact the HTC Flyer does not resemble the iPad in any shape or form and it uses a completely different OS but yes it is "a portable computer arranged to rest comfortably in the hand".

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/07...patent_attack/

    This is why their objectives as to suing are questionable and in my opinion just an indirect attack on Google. It seems their main gripe is with Android OS which they should take up directly with Google.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Quote Originally Posted by mrochester View Post
    Why would we do any different? It's not for us to decide who has or hasn't infringed upon someones IP.
    Its them to decide the lawful decision based on the evidence which they are given. When the evidence which is presented is based on massively vague patents i think im perfectly within my rights to have the opinion that the decision is wrong and the practices used are unfair. I think for myself, i don't think what im told to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud1 View Post
    Your anger should really be faced towards the US patent office - they are the ones who granted all of these patents. They are the ones who said "OK Apple you can have the rights to this technology". All that Apple are doing is defending these patents, as they are legally and morally obliged to do. Microsoft do this. Samsung do this. HTC do this (as shown by the article). In fact even the most benevolent and open companies in the world do this..they all exist to make money and will all do so ruthlessly within the realms of the law. Business is tough, and to succeed you either need lots of luck, or to be as cut throat and black and white as the rest of them.
    I dont see why our anger should be focussed entirely at the patent office. Dont get me wrong i think the whole thing has turned from a brilliant idea which protects people and their inventions into a war factory for these pathetic little disagreements in a converging technological world. Agreed, microsoft are pretty bad for this but the rest of them, from what i have seen, have only taken legal action in retaliation. It is tough in this business but in the most part Apple have been able to stand up to their competition purely using the advertisement and success of their products, there is no need for them to protect 'their IP' with these farsicle law suits and product blocking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud1 View Post
    So, don't just sit and moan that a company (which happens to be HTC in this case actually, but for some reason you all jumped on Apple) is suing another one because the US Patent office granted them a patent - instead you should be moaning that the competition isn't bothering to innovate to try and improve on what Apple can do.
    HTC suing apple is a counter suit for them being sued by apple.... or did you forget that?

    Whether it is the patent office or not... its bollocks. The whole situation is complete and utter turd for all companies and all developers. Devices have got to a point where they have to look and function the in a similar fashion purely because of the manner of the platform. Trying to suggest the other companies other than apple are not innovating is just an unbelievably ignorent statement.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    "a portable computer arranged to rest comfortably in the hand".
    Which is just a snippet of a more highly detailed patent application.

    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6956564

    This is why their objectives as to suing are questionable and in my opinion just an indirect attack on Google. It seems their main gripe is with Android OS which they should take up directly with Google.
    But Google don't make the products that Apple have objection to. Why (and how) do you think Apple should sue Google over another companies product?

    Its them to decide the lawful decision based on the evidence which they are given. When the evidence which is presented is based on massively vague patents i think im perfectly within my rights to have the opinion that the decision is wrong and the practices used are unfair. I think for myself, i don't think what im told to think.
    Then take that up with the organisation that allows companies to be granted these patents, not the companies themselves who are simply excercising their lawful rights.

    It is tough in this business but in the most part Apple have been able to stand up to their competition purely using the advertisement and success of their products, there is no need for them to protect 'their IP' with these farsicle law suits and product blocking.
    Of course there is a need for them to protect their IP, they are legally obliged to do so. I can't even begin to comprehend why you think that because Apple are already very successful, they should be happy for others to copy their work. That's beginning to border on Communism to me. In actual fact, Apple's success should mean that their IP is even more fiercely protected (as we are now witnessing).

    Trying to suggest the other companies other than apple are not innovating is just an unbelievably ignorent statement.
    So then why have other manufactures followed Apple on both the phone and tablet front? Why aren't they coming up with their own unique products and product categories? The answer is, they simply lack the innovation to do so. Apple created the modern touchscreen phone and tablet as we know it. Samsung, HTC, Motorola, Nokia, Sony Ericsson, etc, are all simply following that lead. They have already demonstrated they lack the innovation to pull off what Apple are capable of; their phones and tablets are just variations on a theme. We don't see any of these companies defining new product categories, they're all just following what has gone before. They should be more innovative and come up with these new product categories instead of just following Apple's lead. These lawsuits will hopefully force them to do that, and that is what will be good for the consumer.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    It's completely wrong to suggest that only Apple are going after their competition w/r to patent infringements, and that "the rest" are only retaliating. Every single one of them has been having a go at each other - it's just that Apple a) get more PR coverage for it, and b) are currently attacking anyone and everyone that they can.

    To me this is legitimate business practice, that may have moral implications that none of us agree with, but legally they are right to do so. There are indeed entire multi billion dollar companies out there that exisit just to aquire patents and go after other companies who are infringing them..compared to these companies, apple's litigation activities are incredibly minor.

    The real cause of the problem here is definitely the system that grants the patents in the first place. I'll make the point again though that the vast majority of the patents currently being debated are very very specific (despite what the summary paragraphs may state), and i've never seen or heard of a patent for "A rectangular touch screen device" or similar. If I am wrong please correct me, with a link to the actual patent rather than a news story full of assumptions and mis-information. Apple are just doing what all the rest are - the only reason this is getting so much news space at the moment is that Apple are the current company that its cool to hate. Not so long ago it was Microsoft, and before them IBM/HP..the trend continues.

    I'm not trying to suggest that other companies don't innovate - that could have been put better. What I meant to imply is that other companies are not innovating successfully to compete with the current best-in-class (in terms of sales) devices. Of course everyone is trying, but they have not found that magic bullet yet..someone will do eventually (they always do) but we are not there yet.

    There is every need for Apple to defend their patents - just because they are successful does not mean that they can let everyone else ignore the patents. If anything, their success gives even more reason for doing this.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Quote Originally Posted by mrochester View Post
    But Google don't make the products that Apple have objection to. Why (and how) do you think Apple should sue Google over another companies product?
    Perhaps some of the patents used in the law suit are more angled towards the design and function of the OS but Apple know taking on Google directly could result in some serious damage splashed back at them. Thats what all of this is about, Apple attacking the companies which use google android because its safer then attacking google directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrochester View Post
    Then take that up with the organisation that allows companies to be granted these patents, not the companies themselves who are simply excercising their lawful rights.
    Why not both? If people find ways to abuse a system which at its core has good intentions it doesn't make the abuser morally sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrochester View Post
    Of course there is a need for them to protect their IP, they are legally obliged to do so. I can't even begin to comprehend why you think that because Apple are already very successful, they should be happy for others to copy their work. That's beginning to border on Communism to me. In actual fact, Apple's success should mean that their IP is even more fiercely protected (as we are now witnessing).
    i deliberately put 'their IP' as its difficult to know which parts of it they have developed themself and which parts they bought to load into their legal cannon. More of a point of morality than anything else.
    My point is that they HAVENT REALLY COPIED IT, apple are just using the patents to make it seem like they have according to the law. The law isnt life's decider on reality, it cant take away your ability to use common sense and see with your own eyes the two things only bare a resemblance in the ways which are difficult to avoid. The whole thing is BOLLOCKS!

    Quote Originally Posted by mrochester View Post
    So then why have other manufactures followed Apple on both the phone and tablet front? Why aren't they coming up with their own unique products and product categories? The answer is, they simply lack the innovation to do so. Apple created the modern touchscreen phone and tablet as we know it. Samsung, HTC, Motorola, Nokia, Sony Ericsson, etc, are all simply following that lead. They have already demonstrated they lack the innovation to pull off what Apple are capable of; their phones and tablets are just variations on a theme. We don't see any of these companies defining new product categories, they're all just following what has gone before. They should be more innovative and come up with these new product categories instead of just following Apple's lead. These lawsuits will hopefully force them to do that, and that is what will be good for the consumer.
    Erm... HTC have been making touchscreen phones wayyyyyyyy before Apple did. It took apple 4 generations of their phone to even come close in capability to what HTC where doing with windows mobile 5-6 years ago!
    Tablets have been made by companies too, albiet not running a 'mobile OS'.
    The use of 'as we know it' makes the whole point irrelevant as it implies they have copied someone else anyway. Yes apple made it stylish but they didnt do a whole lot of innovating, more integrating and advertising. Apple didnt create a platform, they just improved and refined it.

  12. #44
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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    So then why have other manufactures followed Apple on both the phone and tablet front? Why aren't they coming up with their own unique products and product categories?

    Because Apple didn't come up with these form factors in the first place. Apple are claiming ownership of a format which was clearly in use before they entered into the market. Yes, they improved the format, but where are they tipping their hat (and their wallet) to those who went before?

    Edit: Or what Biscuit posted while I was writing...
    Last edited by Smudger; 20-10-2011 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Blatant plagiarism

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    I disagree in part - Apple did push the UI forward massively - the marriage of good finger touch software and a capacitive screen were very much new. Without them we would still be using styli arguably (I had many Windows Mobile phones) and there's no harm in acknowledging that.

    That said, HTC had their Sense GUI long before Apple came along (and on a different platform) and Apple still don't have widgets (at all) so you'd have a hard time convincing me that HTC (who've been around since my first XDA for O2 for me) are guilty of copying Apple other than in a very generic (and non-patentable) sense (ha). The GUIs are different (measurably so) and even the underlying OS (Android) is dissimilar enough (although now Apple have erm.. copied notifications.. lol). You may as well argue that Windows Phone is copying Apple (BTW that's Nokia's OS now..) - iOS, Android and Windows Phone all stand on their own merits (which is great and admirable).

    The one thing I will say though is that Apple have stagnated - iOS doesn't appeal to >me< because it's less functional that other systems - both Android and WP7 offer information centric homescreens whereas Apple is largely still a grid of icons for launching an App to tell you said information. A simple example.
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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Quote Originally Posted by mrochester View Post
    Which is just a snippet of a more highly detailed patent application.

    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6956564



    But Google don't make the products that Apple have objection to. Why (and how) do you think Apple should sue Google over another companies product?
    Yes the detail doesn't explain why Sony, Acer, Asus or even Blackberry have not been targeted. Apple are only chasing certain companies which suggests they have other motives.

    Google do make the OS however and Apple does have objection to parts of it. Android 2.3 was one of the reasons the Galaxy S was banned in Netherlands.
    http://www.itworld.com/mobile-wirele...-banned-europe

    This photo scrolling patent will therefore be infringed by any manufacturer using that version of Android, and hence they should be sued for it. Ultimately, Google are providing this platform and Apple should take this up with them.

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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Just look at the photoshop'ed pics in the German case....they changed the aspect ratios to make them look identical as that's the main basis for their case.

    Break it down:
    They use different displays, CPUs, OSes.....

    What was there to copy? A shape and potentially software components.....which would mean Google or Microsoft...not HTC, Samsung etc
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    Re: HTC Lose Apple Case...

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    Just look at the photoshop'ed pics in the German case....they changed the aspect ratios to make them look identical as that's the main basis for their case.

    Break it down:
    They use different displays, CPUs, OSes.....

    What was there to copy? A shape and potentially software components.....which would mean Google or Microsoft...not HTC, Samsung etc
    apple mentioned 3 things in particular. the shape/style, such as curved rounded edges, single button, side buttons etc, the GUI which looks similar in look and layout and the movement, and thirdly the packaging design, not only the outward appearance of the box, the colour the full on front facing image, but the presentation of the internal packaging that looks the same as the ipad/iphone/ipods

    plus i understand the pricing plays a part, plus the advertising, in that the galaxy tab is priced at the same/similar price points, and not a cheap copy, and advertising in press is suggesting it's a better alternative and product

    the data on this is available online, i'm not sure where i saw it before, engadget or gizmodo etc. perhaps someone can find the link

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