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Thread: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    This is the implication given in this BBC News article. iPlayer is adding a streaming Flash component which will allow everyone to view content in a browser.

    The main problem remains the lack of a reliable method for providing expirable playback licences for downloaded content on either OSX or Linux. Reading between the lines, the major worry the BBC seems to have is that developing such a system themselves would be enormously expensive in order to benefit a pretty small sector of the population. While I use a Mac myself, I'd like my licence fee to go towards better uses than creating an alternative DRM system, so I have to agree with them.

    I've heard various vague claims of suitable delivery systems for OSX and Linux, but does anyone have any knowledge of them (rather than hearsay)? Some have mentioned using Real, though Real's ponderous collection of delivery containers is even worse than wmv. I'm sure I've heard talk of other firms trying to get a DRM system going for Linux as well, but does anyone know anything concrete?

    We all know that a DRM-free solution isn't going to work, as that's simply a cue for content-creators to take the BBC to court looking for a windfall out of our pockets. Right now the system the BBC has in place works reasonably well (though Kontiki are about 5 years behind compared to modern bit-torrent protocols), and if you have technology that you're not going to find on this forum then it works very well indeed. The only downside is that you have to boot up XP in a VM, thus adding an entry fee of £50 for non-windows users.
    Last edited by charleski; 16-10-2007 at 07:28 PM.

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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by charleski View Post
    We all know that a DRM-free solution isn't going to work, as that's simply a cue for content-creators to take the BBC to court looking for a windfall out of our pockets.

    How so?
    Surely if the BBC owns the rights to a program, they could put it on TPB if they wanted?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post
    How so?
    Surely if the BBC owns the rights to a program, they could put it on TPB if they wanted?
    Nope, because the old contracts didn't specifically lock down internet rights and getting those rights on new contracts would push up production costs immensely. This doesn't just apply to the actual production company, it applies to rights for all the materials used making the programme, music being a major problem.

    The issue of rights clearances for media is in a total mess, and the basic rule is that no-one owns all the rights to anything.

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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Didn't know that
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    You sometimes come across DVDs of TV shows which use different background music to that which was broadcast, because they couldn't clear a DVD release with the rights-holder. The entire field is a nightmare in which half the job is just finding the person whose permission you need to ask.

    Anyway, to drag it back to my original question: I'm sure a read of a firm attempting to build a DRM content-delivery system for Linux a few months ago, though at the time thought it sounded like vapourware. Has anyone heard of such a thing?

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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    were you thinking of that ? seem to remember it was recently rehashed.
    .
    "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice: Pull down your pants and slide on the ice"

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    Senior Member UltraMagnus's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    all i can say, is that, as a linux user, if i cannot access the service for free, then i am not getting my license fees worth, now am i? i have paid for this service, yet am not receiving it.

    i think the problem with DRM on linux is really the lack of any support from mainstream developers, its a little like putting ketchup on ice cream, they tend to not work well together.

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    Comfortably Numb directhex's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraMagnus View Post
    all i can say, is that, as a linux user, if i cannot access the service for free, then i am not getting my license fees worth, now am i? i have paid for this service, yet am not receiving it.

    i think the problem with DRM on linux is really the lack of any support from mainstream developers, its a little like putting ketchup on ice cream, they tend to not work well together.
    see, the thing is, DRM is flawed by design. all DRM. it's handing someone a lock (the file), a key (the codec), and even the ability to wedge the door open (do something with the media stream after decompressing but before playback)

    could you implement DRM just as effectively on linux as windows? sure. you could even keep it secure when open-sourcing it. check https://drm-opera.dev.java.net/ for Sun's open-source DRM platform

    the reason people use windows media DRM is the usual platform monotheism - it's the most popular so we must use it, and windows is the most popular so screw everyone else

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraMagnus View Post
    all i can say, is that, as a linux user, if i cannot access the service for free, then i am not getting my license fees worth, now am i? i have paid for this service, yet am not receiving it.
    Certainly you aren't getting the same quality as Windows-users, in that you'd be restricted to lower-quality streaming video rather than a downloadable VC-1 version. Then again, there are probably many people who have a TV but don't have a computer hooked up to the internet at all <gasp>, and thus are getting nothing.

    i think the problem with DRM on linux is really the lack of any support from mainstream developers, its a little like putting ketchup on ice cream, they tend to not work well together.
    You'd have thought they'd have learnt their lesson from the original CSS debacle, but no. The link godsdog supplied seems aimed at DRM use on mobile phones running Linux. Has anyone come across a carrier using anything like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    check https://drm-opera.dev.java.net/ for Sun's open-source DRM platform
    Digging through the CVS for that, it looks like one person released a few source files 2 years ago so that Sun could put out a press release and then dropped the whole thing.
    Last edited by charleski; 18-10-2007 at 09:46 AM.

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    Senior Member UltraMagnus's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by charleski View Post
    Certainly you aren't getting the same quality as Windows-users, in that you'd be restricted to lower-quality streaming video rather than a downloadable VC-1 version.
    then i should have to pay a smaller licence fee than a windows user then, shouldn't i?

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    DRM by design, on the hardware we run is flawed, completely and utterly flawed.

    Problem is that the license holders don't want to be told this.

    As there is no way on any os, of creating a region of memory that can't be read by something in Ring 0 (ok, been x86 specific now). So all you can do is obfuscate. Many people consider this pushing the finger in the dam, I'd have to agree, but thats not to say it dosen't have its place.

    A nice simple example, is a 'SecureString' class in .net. a String is a programming term for a collection of letters strung together, such as a password. The problem is that any bit of code in the application could potentially read that password, even after you think its stopped been used, the idea is to use a simple reversable 'hashing' technqiue to make it slightly more difficult. Of course its still very easy to get round, but you've sudenly made it more effort than before, hopefully too much effort.

    This naturally proved a royal waste of time. The shocking thing was how many programmers who should understand that its no pannacia where completely caught out.

    The reason for my attempt to draw this analergy is when programmers don't understand the fundemental idea that nothing is safe, how will a Licesnse holder? They will just belive what they want to.

    No DRM will ever work, be it open source or closed source if they are running on the proccessors of todays masses.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    No DRM will ever work, be it open source or closed source if they are running on the proccessors of todays masses.
    Absolutely right, it only takes 4 clicks to remove DRM from a wmv file. But what's important for rights-holders is the illusion of security, especially in the case of the BBC, as all they really need is a defense that will prevent rights-holders from taking them to court. In the context of iPlayer, time-expiry DRM is needed merely as a means of allowing the issue of clearances to be circumvented.

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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    its one of those buck passing almost like hedging/insurance activities.

    Spread the blame nice n thin, so the people who are moaning, can't sue anyone directly.

    The real problem is, I think that the right holders do deserve some protection. Just look at how many people choose 0pence for the radiohead album, i honestly belive most of them could of afforded at least &#163;1, but instead they use some normally warped logic to justify a bargin. Its the same mentality that thinks pirating music is morally ok because look how rich the record labels are. (an extension of that rant, odds are I could break into your house and steal your TV, look how rich you are, you don't need more than 1 can of baked beans a week, i could steal all your money right now. Its fine for me to be judge jury and executioner because, you've got so much more money than an bob geldof poster child african).........
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

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    Anthropomorphic Personification shaithis's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraMagnus View Post
    then i should have to pay a smaller licence fee than a windows user then, shouldn't i?
    Just like those with lower quality TVs don't get to see the same image as someone who has spent more.


    The analogy is not great but its pretty true. Not everyone views the same thing, your equipment dictates what you see to a certain extent.

    I wish they would just ditch DRM but its never going to happen.
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    Comfortably Numb directhex's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by charleski View Post
    Digging through the CVS for that, it looks like one person released a few source files 2 years ago so that Sun could put out a press release and then dropped the whole thing.
    i believe a korean tv network is using it for their iptv offering

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    Re: iPlayer for OSX and Linux - stream only?

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    i believe a korean tv network is using it for their iptv offering
    Really? Very interesting, especially as that is nearly the same application that the BBC need.

    [Edit]I suppose I should say that I believe the real solution is a reform of copyright law such that an agreement to allow the use of material for broadcast by the BBC is held to be binding for any form of delivery (by the BBC to consumers without cost) in the UK. But that, of course, will probably trigger huge lobbying from the content groups and allow a load of nonsense in WIPO, so would require a government with balls.
    ...
    Last edited by charleski; 18-10-2007 at 10:34 PM.

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