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Thread: Windows Server?

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    Windows Server?

    I've just started a new job where they caught wind that I'm good with computers. While setting up a plotter for them, I discovered all their PCs are running Windows 98. I asked about backups and they said they don't do any, although they know they should. One of the managers said he would quite like a server so that he could access documents while he's off site. I know almost nothing about server operating systems.

    Would Windows Server 2003/2008 be suitable for a network with 4 or 5 PCs? Is it easy enough to pick up on and learn? Would it be a waste if I don't go into the detailed settings? What kind of hardware would be needed for the server and for the thin clients? Is there an alternative to let them easily browse their files remotely? I suggested a NAS sort of as a backup, but can they be accessed over WAN? I know Vista and W7 have a remote acces feature built in, but they would need more expensive hardware than a ~£100 XP machine.

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    jim
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    Re: Windows Server?

    If all he wants to do is access documents whilst offsite, then I would suggest that WS2008 is overkill.

    In fact, Windows Home Server would probably do the trick for that many PCs, and it would also take care of backups. Plus point: any idiot could set that up.

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    Re: Windows Server?

    Windows Home Server seems much more suitable. I think they named it badly. Looking through the Miscorosft Website, it seems to be just right for what they want without being £250+ for a few computers.

    So would a network on WHS run the operating systems on the client machines while accessing files in a central location, rather than running each operating system from the server machine? Looking at the Microsoft system specifications, it seems like I would be able to use an old Pentium 4 computer I have.

    Server:
    2.53GHz Pentium 4
    768MB RAM
    ~250GB IDE hard drive (Maybe two, seems like WHS can copy a drive for security) Considering they're using Windows 98, I doubt they use a huge amount of storage.
    On board graphics


    Clients:
    Standard XP machines, available for about £100 each.

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    Re: Windows Server?

    With such a small number of users, maybe hosted sharepoint would be better? accessible from anywhere and automatically backed up. Might be worth looking into as an alternative.

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    Re: Windows Server?

    What do you want this "server" to enable them to do? Just to act as a central file store? If they don't plan to expand to many more clients, then WHS would be fine. http://www.ebuyer.com/product/237003

    Remote access to files could be done perfectly fine with XP clients on £100 hardware - just let users RDP on to their office desktop. There are some good & bad ways to do this. You could pick up a £50 Netscreen 5GT on Ebay and control access with a free VPN client (Shrewsoft) - the learning curve is a little high though. This obviously requires the end-user to install a VPN client, which isn't always feasible. Other possibilities might perhaps include simply a LogMeIn account.

    There are many things to know before recommending anything in particular:

    - Will there be many more staff in the future?
    - What kind of budget is there? Enough for a proper RAID setup & UPS for the server(s)?
    - Do they want off-site backups?
    - Do they want to restrict access to some files?
    - Do you have any control over the remote access clients? i.e. business laptops, home PCs, will they be working remotely on other business networks etc.
    - How much time can you dedicate to this endeavour?
    - Will each user only ever use 1 PC in the office, or do they hotdesk?
    - What method of email & internet access do they have at the moment?
    - What hardware is currently available? Do they intend to do a hardware refresh at all?
    - Since they're on Windows 98, do they have anything equally ancient such as maybe a token-ring based network?
    - How much malware is on the network right now? Do they use any AV software?
    - Do they have any custom software which just can't be moved to a new OS?
    - Do all users need to be local admins? Do they want PCs to be locked down?
    - What about physical security - have they had any PCs stolen before? Do they want no data stored on the PCs but in a secure office? Do they handle sensitive data?

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    Re: Windows Server?

    Whats the budget for this project - or is there none?
    What is the business expectation from the MD for this project?

    If I am honest it sounds like a scrap the lot and start again project!

    If there are <10 PCs and there isn't the prospect of them growing beyond 15 then look at Windows Foundation server or SBS 2008.

    Foundation is hard locked to only 15 users or less, but no per user CAL cost with email connectivity done by using Microsoft BPOS (Hosted exchange, SharePoint, live meeting and Office Communication Server.
    SBS is hard locked to 75 users, but has a per user CAL cost....but you get Exchange 2007 with it.

    Also where can you buy £100 XP machines?!

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    Re: Windows Server?

    foundation sounds the perfect solution, but if there's next to no budget available then tbh dude i reckon WHS with a couple of well chosen add-ins would do the job for 4 or 5 PCs
    if it ain't broke...fix it till it is


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    Re: Windows Server?

    Thanks for the replies and suggestions. There are some valid questions, a lot of which I don't quite understand on a technical level and some that don't really seem relevant to my situation.

    I should probably give a hint as to what kind of organisation it is. It's an engineering business with a few people in an office using computers. The managers would like to be able to access their files, I guess designs and invoices, while they're working at a customer site. It's not a project they've lumped on me, more of an off hand comment stemming from me talking about them using Windows 98, so I said I would look into it. At the moment there is no budget because it's a spur of the moment thing and I'm just looking into it. Obviously there's no point doing it if it costs thousands.

    At the very least, I've told them they should be using XP machines for security and compatibility. I know XP isn't super secure now, but at least it's not the sieve that '98 is.


    Quote Originally Posted by gss03 View Post
    Also where can you buy £100 XP machines?!
    Second hand. There are plenty of used Pentium 4 workstations available for around £100-150.



    - Will there be many more staff in the future?
    No, likely just the 4-5 PCs they have now, even if they're replaced with newer machines.

    - What kind of budget is there? Enough for a proper RAID setup & UPS for the server(s)?
    No budget while I'm researching it. Obviously not megabucks.

    - Do they want off-site backups?
    I expect they'd be happy with any kind of backups. Off site is something else to look into in the future, maybe with online storage.

    - Do they want to restrict access to some files?
    Only restricted to people outside the company.

    - Do you have any control over the remote access clients? i.e. business laptops, home PCs, will they be working remotely on other business networks etc.
    No control. I'm thinking if they log in with their account using whatever relevant software it should be secure enough. They wouldn't be remote accessing with customer's computers.

    - How much time can you dedicate to this endeavour?
    Doesn't really matter as long as it doesn't disrupt their work. So I would probably get the new stuff up and running without doing anything to their current set up.

    - Will each user only ever use 1 PC in the office, or do they hotdesk?
    They only ever sit at their own computers, so they wouldn't be logging into their account from elsewhere on site.

    - What method of email & internet access do they have at the moment?
    I'm not sure on the emails. They have their own website, so I guess they have an email address linked into that. Internet access is either cable or ADSL through a wireless/wired router. I think I saw a BT logo on it, so maybe ADSL.

    - What hardware is currently available? Do they intend to do a hardware refresh at all?
    I've told them they should really upgrade from 98, which almost certainly means new workstations. I doubt they're anything better than Pentium 3s. Current hardware are the workstations, a router, and some printers.

    - Since they're on Windows 98, do they have anything equally ancient such as maybe a token-ring based network?
    I'm not sure what a token-ring network is, but they're using WiFi on a basic router.

    - How much malware is on the network right now? Do they use any AV software?
    God knows. I'd be surprised if there was any up to date AV that still works on 98.

    - Do they have any custom software which just can't be moved to a new OS?
    Not that I'm aware of. I think they use some kind of 2D CAD but it's probably not very recent.

    - Do all users need to be local admins? Do they want PCs to be locked down?
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean in this context.

    - What about physical security - have they had any PCs stolen before? Do they want no data stored on the PCs but in a secure office? Do they handle sensitive data?
    The most sensitive data is the accounts, which is on a laptop off the network. I think one of the staff takes that home in the evening. I think it would be best if the data was in a central location that each workstation in the office could access, rather than spread around a few different PCs.

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    Re: Windows Server?

    Quote Originally Posted by KidChameleon View Post
    ... I discovered all their PCs are running Windows 98. ...
    They have bigger issues than needing a backup policy, tbh

    Your biggest issue is going to be setting up a server that is both WAN accessible and secure. You're talking about VPN and tunnelling right there. I assume that whatever the business is they hold some kind of personal data about someone - at the very least they must have some staff records or something. On that basis they need to comply with Data Protection legislation, and if you're setting up the network they're going to pass the buck on any breaches along to you - is that really a position you want to be in?

    tbh, in your situation I'd try to talk the boss into getting someone professional in specifically to look at your networking. Maybe you could handle it, but ask yourself if you're being paid enough to do your actual job *and* to take responsibility if anything goes wrong with any of the computers. It sounds to me like now is the time that your employers need to take IT support seriously (you'd be amazed at how many small businesses don't take it seriously until all their computers crash and burn; and how desperate the bosses are to find someone else to blame at that point: don't be that person!).

    EDIT: to pick up on some of the stuff in the cross-post:

    it sounds to me like a perfect situation for a set of 5 new workstations and a Linux server running Samba. The server wouldn't need to be anything fancy, a basic P4 machine would cope (I used to run a Samba server off a 1.2GHz Sempron, back in the day!). I believe there are even a few ways of persuading Win XP Pro to do Domain sign in to a samba server, meaning passwords are all managed via the server: however that wouldn't be essential for your purposes. The bigger issue (and this is why I'd get a professional in) is that to get remote access to those files you're going to have to mess around with the firewall, port forwarding and VPN passthrough on the router. Make even the tiniest mistake in that and you could be looking at huge, gaping security holes in the company network: really not what you want. It is, however, definitely possible within a fairly tight budget if you shop around and do all the work yourself. As I say, the risk with that is that you set yourself up to be hing out to dry if anything goes wrong...
    Last edited by scaryjim; 09-10-2010 at 06:32 PM.

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    Re: Windows Server?

    WHS should take care of remote file access without any need to muck about with VPNs and the like, but I'm not sure how customisable that feature is - I've never needed it myself.

    If you're going to do it yourself, rather than getting the experts in (as scaryjim suggested), then I think for the sake of your sanity WHS might be the best option. All of the things it does (remote access, backups, access rights, data duplication, etc) is all fully automated, which is worth a lot!

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    Re: Windows Server?

    If there isn't the money to do much why not get in a local IT company to do an audit of the kit you have already and let them make some suggestions?

    In this *Economic Climate* some companies are using this technique as a way to get a foot in the door and should report back on the kit you have and what they think you could do based on your needs.

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    Re: Windows Server?

    Where to start?

    Well the last thing you should be looking at at the moment is the technology. The first stage is to do a business requirements analysis, in some depth (more than just 'share files' )

    What sort of remote access is equired
    What servuces are required (file sharing, file storage, backup, mail and so on)
    What is the administratve overhead
    Is there a requirement for a business continuity plan
    Is there an existing network - is it good enough as it stands or does it need upgrading

    Plus all the others that gss03 asked

    That gives you basis for a busness case with some optons that you can discuss with the MD, and refine down to look at the technology, and then a set of costed options.

    WHS probably won't be suitable - the clue is in the name - Windows HOME Server -and you may find that the licence doesn't cover commercial use.

    Central file storage does make sense for the reasons you have outlined - but it then becomes a central point of failure, so backup and business continuity must be onsidered from the outset. At least at the moment if one machine fails, you only' lose a percentage of the data. As for the accunts, that is a disaster waiting to happen. If that laptop is lost or damaged... doesn't bear thinking about.

    Personally - from what you have said, and if I was doing the job- I'd be looking at the Linux/Samba solution, and upgradng the office computers to somethig more modern, negotiationg a discount with someone like Dell and running Win7 - minimum home premium - preferably professional. If you have specific software that will only run on older OS, then that needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.

    There is also a need to train users in better ways of working tomake best use of a central file store, and you would also need to think about access controls - but this would be part of the business case.
    Last edited by peterb; 11-10-2010 at 09:23 AM.
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    Re: Windows Server?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    WHS probably won't be suitable - the clue is in the name - Windows HOME Server -and you may find that the licence doesn't cover commercial use.
    Don't think that's true, Peter. Can't find any good evidence to the contrary at the moment, but here's a quote from the official technet blog for WHS which more or less says that it's fine:

    As you may know, we have talked about Windows Home Server in the SOHO space before, Windows Home Server – Can It Be a SOHO Solution?. You may also know that Kevin Royalty, has talked a lot about how he has been deploying Windows Home Server into his SBS customer's environments for some time now. Alex Kuretz one of our Home Server MVPs just did a story on this. Using Windows Home Server in a Small Business.
    In fact, the next version of WHS (based on Server 2008) will be issued in two forms - one designed for the home user, and the other designed for small businesses with support for active directory.

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    Re: Windows Server?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    WHS probably won't be suitable - the clue is in the name - Windows HOME Server -and you may find that the licence doesn't cover commercial use.
    Which is why I said it's badly named.

    http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...o/default.mspx



    Some of this is getting a bit too technical for what's needed. Basically, they'd like some way of accessing files from off site and some way of organising their data on-site. It seems like Windows Home Server will be suitable, without costing a huge amount. I'll go through some more detailed discussions with them in the week. You may have noticed I don't have much solid information about the current set up. But now I have some ideas to go through and look into, so I should be able to get a better picture of what's needed and can be done.

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    Re: Windows Server?

    I stand corrected! Not really something I have looked into in any depth - Linux does everything I need (and I guess would meet your requirements too - but you really do need to capture all those requiremnts at the outset, and plan for the future - once the system is running, the use wil expand!) How do you plan to handle remote access? VPN?
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    Re: Windows Server?

    If he goes for WHS, it's done through HTTPS

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