Ubuntu 11.10 > Windows 7

[shaithis]

They latest (mainstream) distros of Linux aren't that difficult to install. Fedora gets a little complicated with disk partitioning, but once up and running in a Gui like Gnome or KDE, configuration tools hide most of the configuration nitty gritty from the user. The Gnome 3 minimnalist approach takes a bit of getting used to, and that might put some people as it seems rather featureless and barren after the windows desktop. I'm still coming to terms with it!

The fact a techie uses the phrase "aren't that difficult to install" immediately gets me worried for Joe Public. It needs us techheads to say "Complete doddle, no problems at all, easy as pie to fix" before Joe Public really stands a chance IMO.

While not "run of the mill", I've recently been setting up a CentOS cluster.........I cannot believe the amount of hours I have spent on it and it's still not configured 100% correctly........Years ago when I setup my first MSCS environment, it was ready in a few hours....and it's even easier to setup, configure and maintain on the newer editions of Windows. Hell, I even had to edit files with vi to get networking working on CentOS. That alone could cause the majority of users heads to explode.

[aidanjt]

The fact a techie uses the phrase "aren't that difficult to install" immediately gets me worried for Joe Public. It needs us techheads to say "Complete doddle, no problems at all, easy as pie to fix" before Joe Public really stands a chance IMO.

While not "run of the mill", I've recently been setting up a CentOS cluster.........I cannot believe the amount of hours I have spent on it and it's still not configured 100% correctly........Years ago when I setup my first MSCS environment, it was ready in a few hours....and it's even easier to setup, configure and maintain on the newer editions of Windows. Hell, I even had to edit files with vi to get networking working on CentOS. That alone could cause the majority of users heads to explode.

Surely you're not comparing a CentOS cluster to an Ubuntu desktop.

Seriously, if you can't get a Ubuntu desktop going you don't have a hope with Windows.

[shaithis]

It's one thing to get it going, it's a completely different thing to get it going again after something has gone wrong.

You also cannot begin to compare configuration of the 2 OSes. So many of the config options in Windows are hidden in text files on Ubuntu.

[aidanjt]

It's one thing to get it going, it's a completely different thing to get it going again after something has gone wrong.

You also cannot begin to compare configuration of the 2 OSes. So many of the config options in Windows are hidden in text files on Ubuntu.

And most of the configuration for Windows is buried deep in an uncommented giant monolithic binary database. Again, how is that any easier? Windows is a nightmare to fix when faults develop. Most of the time a nuke and reinstall is the only 'sane' solution.

[TheAnimus]

And most of the configuration for Windows is buried deep in an uncommented giant monolithic binary database. Again, how is that any easier? Windows is a nightmare to fix when faults develop. Most of the time a nuke and reinstall is the only 'sane' solution.

Nonsense!

The problem windows has is that it has traditionally been a free for all for devs. Madness.

Yes the registry is a shining turd from a company which owns some bloody good database technologies (how the hell its not built on one of the SQLight ideas I don't know!) but the point is for most people it works.

The problems most people have with windows PCs is due to software they've installed.

The problems most people have with linux machines is due to the hardware they want, or the poor discoverability of the software. When a package is bad, and all hell breaks loose.

Also whilst I've not tried the latest version, do you still have to do:
http://www.ubuntugeek.com/back-in-ti...or-ubuntu.html
To get a system restore like tool? My mum wouldn't manage that....

[aidanjt]

The problems most people have with windows PCs is due to software they've installed.

Yes, Windows.

The problems most people have with linux machines is due to the hardware they want

Much less of a problem these days. Most hardware is quite generic now.

the poor discoverability of the software.

Perhaps that would be true if you were brain damaged. Seriously, discovering software in Linux is a piece of piss. You know, the whole giant database of Distro packaged software. It's searchable, clickable, and googlable. Meanwhile, in Windows land, Google is your only means of software discovery, which will produce a wildly varied list, most of which will be a pile of crap, malware ridden, and will likely screw up system files and settings in some subtle way, with a chance of overt system breakage.

When a package is bad

Which is exceptionally rare. PM sanity mechanisms catch a lot of kludged packages. Meanwhile, in Windows land... well, you get the idea.

and all hell breaks loose.

I've never had a Linux system suffer from 'all hell breaking loose'. And when I say that, bare in mind, that I used Gentoo for many years, and went through many laborious and risky updates. Meanwhile.. back in Windows land..

<UberPinguin> ...wow. Admin at a sister site is saying that a corrupt printer driver completely hosed his MS terminal server over the weekend. Full rebuild required.

That would simply never have happened to a Linux terminal server.

Also whilst I've not tried the latest version, do you still have to do:
http://www.ubuntugeek.com/back-in-ti...or-ubuntu.html
To get a system restore like tool? My mum wouldn't manage that....

Nope. And that's included with the current Ubuntu release out of the box. And when Btrfs becomes stable, it'll make snapshotting and rollback easy to integrate into PMs and GUI tools. Besides, if mum wasn't been sheltered

Windows is usually great at stuff it's intended to be good at, it has its strengths for sure... But, system stability, recoverability, and sanity simply isn't one of them.

[TheAnimus]

Yes, Windows.

Funny! But you know what I mean, windows has no convential jailed mode, this is something I think Metro will add as a great benefit. Sadly they aren't apparently bringing it over to WIMP, why I don't know, they have all the APIs available.....

People just don't know what the difference between a rootkit and a screensaver is, thats an issue.

Much less of a problem these days. Most hardware is quite generic now.

True, its getting much better, but I still would have to google if I was buying a multi function device printer, like the one I've just given to my parents for scanning my mail and stuff. I know it will just work on windows, it has a logo on the box. This is still an issue, they need to get a logo program and hardware testing program, WHQL for its sins is pretty good compared to the jungle.

Perhaps that would be true if you were brain damaged. Seriously, discovering software in Linux is a piece of piss. You know, the whole giant database of Distro packaged software. It's searchable, clickable, and googlable. Meanwhile, in Windows land, Google is your only means of software discovery, which will produce a wildly varied list, most of which will be a pile of crap, malware ridden, and will likely screw up system files and settings in some subtle way, with a chance of overt system breakage.

Are you seriously saying you'd fire up the package manager rather than google? I always google first then hit the apt-get. But then I've been debian for a while (again). Browsing the package managers is almost as awful as using the App Store on the iPad (I mean WTF, how could you make it so annoying....).

The other issue is plenty of people will only look in a physical store. Luddites make up such a large percentage....

Which is exceptionally rare. PM sanity mechanisms catch a lot of kludged packages. Meanwhile, in Windows land... well, you get the idea.

Utter bollocks. I've had to use expert hands more times than I'd like when installing what should have been a harmless package. Perl can and frequently has broken many things.

That would simply never have happened to a Linux terminal server.

One of the first things that got me interested in computer security was related to how someone could use the default interupt on the parrallel port to exploit an issue with some ICL supplied kit, it never experted certain combination of pin transistions and foolishly allowed code execution, this was before rings iirc. This was unix rather than windows too.

I should warn you, In a former life I used to make custom electronic bits and bobs, so I know intemately the linux 2.2 kernel, which is why I hate it so much, the model in NT (since 4!) is bloody brilliant, mostly because it wasn't designed by MS, but by this bloody great man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler

In linux there is something called UML or user mode linux, now afaik (this may have changed!) printer drivers don't run on it generally. In windows we've WUMDF, which plenty of vendors duly ignore, and irritatingly they can and still get WHQL certification (seriously, WTF!?). But most don't. This means the idea of a rouge printer driver killing the kernel is unlikely. However in linux thanks to its sloppy dynamic module system I've had this happen far more. Windows generally reboots, disabled it, logging only to the event viewer that you never, ever, ever, read, that it nurfed the driver....

Nope. And that's included with the current Ubuntu release out of the box. And when Btrfs becomes stable, it'll make snapshotting and rollback easy to integrate into PMs and GUI tools. Besides, if mum wasn't been sheltered

See thats quite good, do you get the simple system restore type integration too? The whole this last change has effected system stability do you wish to roll back stuff? And also if you think you could teach my mum how to do that stuff, and have free time, I'll pay you, serious no joke, she could do with learning it, whilst I've managed mentoring 'difficult' school children, my mum just doesn't want to learn at all. It would also be a bloody good experiment, maybe even paper worthy in the bull**** HCI area!

Windows is usually great at stuff it's intended to be good at, it has its strengths for sure... But, system stability, recoverability, and sanity simply isn't one of them.

System stability NT is pretty rocksolid at, my desktop I'm on has only ever crashed due to dodgy cross fire drivers, its a year old, that problem lasted a couple of weeks. Plenty of app crashes internally happen mind, and I'd sooner people used more of a MVVM Silverlight style state model myself, as I think it makes things inheriently more robust, I'd also like to see 'View' level exception handling patterns provided by the OS and built in error reporting around these things. There are many, many things wrong and missing from windows, and its definately not the be all and end all. I also think that many linux distros are improving at a faster rate than windows is. Windows 8 offers me little of relivence for my dev desktops, where as a lot of the linux distros are really catching up in the areas they are defficient. I just wish they'd sort out a HAL.

[peterb]

I think I'd rather go to a repositry to find my software, theownload it and if I don't like it, look for something else.

For software that isn't in a repository, downloading source code and compiling it is a bit of a faff, and daunting for the average home user, but isn't necessary very often - especially if you use the main stream distros. And consumers are getting used to downloading software from an app store - Apple and Android for example.

And by the way, the current Linux kernel is 2.6, 2.2 faded into obscurity some years ago. (And you will be delighted to learn that the Linux kernel has a hardware abstraction layer .

If you are interested, try reading "Understanding the Linux Kernel" by Bovet and Cesati (O'Reilly) as it gives an extremely good insight into the operation of the current kernel and the Virtual File System model.

Intertesting too is that some of the Gnome apps are using SQL lite for configuration and user data (debateable if that is a good think, text or XML files are much easier to decode and tweak) even if Gnom,e 3 is a little... far out (but looks as if it is designed for the tablet platform).

[TheAnimus]

I think I'd rather go to a repositry to find my software, theownload it and if I don't like it, look for something else.

For software that isn't in a repository, downloading source code and compiling it is a bit of a faff, and daunting for the average home user, but isn't necessary very often - especially if you use the main stream distros. And consumers are getting used to downloading software from an app store - Apple and Android for example.

But the repo browsers, and as I said before the App Store on the apple fondleslab are so poor almost everyone I know googles what they are looking for!

And as Android nicely demonstrates you still have nasty code in the app store model if its not walled in.

And by the way, the current Linux kernel is 2.6, 2.2 faded into obscurity some years ago. (And you will be delighted to learn that the Linux kernel has a hardware abstraction layer .

If you are interested, try reading "Understanding the Linux Kernel" by Bovet and Cesati (O'Reilly) as it gives an extremely good insight into the operation of the current kernel and the Virtual File System model.

I might give it a go if I've some time later on and its kindle friendly, but the thing is 2.2 put me off, because people were saying it was good. It wasn't. It was just a sloppy turd. All these fan boys were saying how amazing it was, how you could change anything etc, but writing even the simplest IO whacker was a nightmare.

Intertesting too is that some of the Gnome apps are using SQL lite for configuration and user data (debateable if that is a good think, text or XML files are much easier to decode and tweak) even if Gnom,e 3 is a little... far out (but looks as if it is designed for the tablet platform).

Ah but then you have a real issue, some apps storing in XML, some in Unicode, some in strange database formats.

I'd much rather that desktop OS's took a leaf out of mobile dev books and provided isolated storage, if you wanted something other than the isolated storage, you get a warning icon, sanity prompt etc. They could offer you some ORM stash too.

I am very sad that nothing came out of Singularity, I much prefer the idea of a micro kernel. We are seeing on windows and linux movement towards user mode drivers. (btw peter, do you know if most of their printer drivers are now UML?). It makes it easier to maintain more stable, and if you have isolation models, you make the interaction more clear, you can pin down the bad app.

A lot of people complain about the length of time IE takes to boot, in 9 they added the timing thingie that showed you. I'm pretty proficient user, yet I had some HP Web Print thing that had ninja'd in. I'd like a system that stopped such things.

[lkarunan]

FYI the current version of the kernel is 3.x. Its essentially no different from 2.6.x series but Linus decided to arbitrarily give a version bump because of the 20th anniversary of linux.

My knowledge of low-level systems pales in comparison to yours but my experience with udev (the userspace device manager) is very positive, as an end user.

As far as the thread title is concerned, I don't think a general comparison is valid - case usage is very important. For example I started using GNU/Linux ca. 2004 as a poor student trying to coax some life out of an ancient Dell laptop preloaded with Windows ME. It game me access to some useful software for my degree (octave - a matlab clone, jmol) and I was able to use my student copy of MS Office through WINE. Saved me a lot of cash.