Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
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Originally Posted by
ZaO
Nah I don't agree.
Civil law doesn't care if you agree or not. If you agree to a EULA then break the terms of it it's breach of contract. That's a hard fact. Whether MS will choose to enforce the EULA is a different matter, and does not change that legality of your actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZaO
Doesn't even matter because I think they're supposed to be doing away with OEM vs Retail with Windows 8 anyway.
Windows 8, regardless of whether it's called Retail, OEM, or something else will still have a EULA that applies to its use, and if you want to use it within the law you have to adhere to those terms and conditions (unless a court rules otherwise). If the Windows 8 EULA says you cannot transfer it between machines, and that changing your motherboard constitutes changing your machine, then you can't - legally - transfer it. If you do, you breach contract. None of which has any relevance to breaching the Win 7 OEM EULA, which is what we were talking about.
I'm sure you feel entirely justified in your actions, but as the law and the EULA stand, you're acting outside the law by reinstalling an OEM licensed copied of Windows on a computer with a different motherboard. And whether you disagree with that or think it's irrelevant really doesn't matter!
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
I'm not sure ignorance is an excuse, really.
Because if you violate your license, Microsoft are well within their rights to terminate your license - they actually explicitly spell out that right in the license.
Even most people on here arguing for the licensing terms is unlikely to be following all the rules - e.g. did you know your license is only valid if you stick the CD key to your case?
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
You guys are hilarious bowing down to the Microsoft overlords haha!! I already linked that story from the news section of this very site proving how game EULA's are BS and that we are perfectly within our rights to sell games on after we're done with them. The fact that you guys would buy a new license everytime you upgrade your graphics card or whatever kills me. Sorry but you guys are suckers lol. My version of W7 is one I bought on a student deal when I was doing some computer stuff at college a few years back. I have no idea how many computers it can be registered on but it stays activated when I upgrade some components in my computer. I have reactivated it about 10 times though due to 3 mobo upgrades, 1 cpu upgrade and general reinstalling due to system errors n stuff like that. Does that make your blood boil? Do you feel sorry for Microsoft because they didn't get 100's of more pounds out of me for all those fresh installs?
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
*sigh*
You're really not getting this, are you.
My posts have nothing to do with what you, personally, choose to do. That's your business. You're quite entitled to breach contracts if you want. But that doesn't mean you're not breaching the contract, and replying to someone who points this out with "Don't be silly." is naive and disrespectful. By all means decide that you're not going to respect the EULA, but have the decency to accept that what you're doing is, legally, wrong.
If I pointed out that driving at 80mph on a motorway is illegal would you tell me to stop being silly? Most people (including me) do it at some point, and it's probably considered normal nowadays, but that doesn't stop it being illegal. If the police suddenly decided to stick a mobile speed cam on the Preston bypass they'd probably catch thousands of people doing more than 70mph, and none of them could use "everyone else was doing it" or "I don't think there's a problem with it" as a defence - they'd have been breaking the law and have to face the consequences. I don't get why you think what you're doing is any different ... the law doesn't care how justified you think you are or whether you can get away with it.
As to the recent EU decision on game EULAs, that's completely irrelevant to this discussion. Yes, EULAs - or more specifically individual clauses in EULAs - are sometimes overturned in court. I even made that point in my last post. That doesn't somehow automatically invalidate all EULAs, or even the remaining clauses in the EULA the court was ruling on. An EU court has decided that EU law inherently grants EU citizens (and *only* EU citizens, incidentally) the right to sell on a copy and license of a software they have purchased. That's not what's at discussion here. No court has decided that an individual should be allowed to upgrade as many different components of their PC as they want and continue to use the same OS license. So that clause in MS's Windows EULA still stands in law, until someone challenges it in court and wins.
Now, if you were talking about wanting to mount a legal challenge to that clause in the EULA, I'd get right behind you - I think it's a daft clause. But you're not - you're talking about willfully breaking a contract, and claiming that it's OK to do so. Obviously I'm not going to change your mind, but other people may read this thread who aren't sure what the legal position is, and you're given them the false impression that they're allowed to ignore EULAs. Well, they're not. Unless a court has ruled against a specific EULA or a specific clause in multiple EULAs, breaking a EULA is illegal. If someone is OK with acting illegally that's up to them, but they at least deserve a clear answer on whether they are or not.
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
I don't think reinstalling windows is anything like speeding on the motorway and risking peoples lives lol... I honestly don't believe that what I'm doing is against the EULA anyway. Before I realized you could use a much simpler automated phone system method I had Microsoft support on the phone a couple times helping me reactivate my copy of windows when it didn't work and I told them I upgraded the mobo, cpu and ram or whatever it was. They had no issue with that. It's still only running on my one computer. I think the point is that it's not running on loads of different machines at once. I seriously believe they have no issue with it and I think you guys have probably misunderstood the terms of agreement. But yeh also, I seriously don't care if they did have an issue with it. I paid for my copy of windows and I'll upgrade my computer if I want. Upgrading my computer does nothing to damage their business, that's crazy talk.
I respect your point about people being clear on the legal standpoint though. But as I said - I bet ms couldn't do me in court for upgrading my computer lol. Also I realized that you guys opposing me have coloured names which means you work for this site so I can totally see why you're putting these points across. I get it man. I bet all you lot also re use your copy of windows when you upgrade some components haha.... You criminals you... :P
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
lol
And no, no I didn't lol. When I bought components for a new machine I bought a new copy of Windows. I build a new machine maybe once every 3-4 years, so the OEM license sits nicely with me (I'm also quite happy that I provide my own technical support as the OEM, another difference in the license lol). If you're building brand new machines more often then I'd say that a Retail copy would represent more financial value. Just because Microsoft are a succesful company (lol) doesn't give you the right to breach that license. If you are so sure of your convictions I'd suggest that you challenge the EULA in a court of law - who knows, you might be able to force them to change it?
lol
And no, I don't work here. I just believe that if you're not going to use software within the terms of the supplied license (be it paid or otherwise) then you shouldn't use it at all.
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
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Originally Posted by
Splash
lol
And no, no I didn't lol. When I bought components for a new machine I bought a new copy of Windows. I build a new machine maybe once every 3-4 years, so the OEM license sits nicely with me (I'm also quite happy that I provide my own technical support as the OEM, another difference in the license lol). If you're building brand new machines more often then I'd say that a Retail copy would represent more financial value. Just because Microsoft are a succesful company (lol) doesn't give you the right to breach that license. If you are so sure of your convictions I'd suggest that you challenge the EULA in a court of law - who knows, you might be able to force them to change it?
lol
And no, I don't work here. I just believe that if you're not going to use software within the terms of the supplied license (be it paid or otherwise) then you shouldn't use it at all.
I disagree haha. But we're gonna keep going round in circles here so I'm thinking we should just leave it at that. Meanwhile I think I might install a new fan and do a fresh install of W7 lol....
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
Minor nitpick here Jim, but it's an important point that's recently just happened in the EU courts:
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Originally Posted by
scaryjim
Civil law doesn't care if you agree or not. If you agree to a EULA then break the terms of it it's breach of contract.
Breach of contract doesn't mean breach of law necessarily though. A company can't normally write conditions into a contract that overwrite your legal rights for example (certainly in the UK).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scaryjim
That's a hard fact. Whether MS will choose to enforce the EULA is a different matter, and does not change that legality of your actions.
But it can and the section of the EULA that has been breached might not even be a legal term. If MS write something in that you break and they decide to take action, the court could decide that the breach isn't valid. Again, this has just happened in the EU with 2nd hand software.
Otherwise yep, I agree with what you're saying, but let's not give the big boys too much credit here. They can't write anything willy-nilly into the EULA and than have it enforceable - that's down to the courts.
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Agent
Minor nitpick here Jim, but it's an important point that's recently just happened in the EU courts ...
... let's not give the big boys too much credit here. They can't write anything willy-nilly into the EULA and than have it enforceable - that's down to the courts.
Indeed, and I clarified that point in later responses. But AFAIK the specific exception for upgrading your mobo requiring a new license hasn't been challenged yet ;) I think 'hex's point is a good one too - you have to attach the license sticker to the case, so if you move your computer to a new case, but otherwise keep everything the same, technically the new computer isn't properly licensed because it doesn't have the sticker on the case! It seems ridiculous, but until/unless it is challenged and overturned, the clause stands.
I'm just not sure I'd like to be the test case that Microsoft chose to enforce that clause on ;)
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
@Agent - Good post. That's what I'm saying. Screw EULA's - we have laws to abide by and that's what it really comes down to. Companies just write whatever the hell they want into EULA's and think people are dumb enough to believe it's legit and follow it.
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZaO
@Agent - Good post. That's what I'm saying. Screw EULA's - we have laws to abide by and that's what it really comes down to. Companies just write whatever the hell they want into EULA's and think people are dumb enough to believe it's legit and follow it.
And if you don't challenge it in a legal manner then it's never going to change. Simply ignoring it won't change anything.
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZaO
@Agent - Good post. That's what I'm saying. Screw EULA's
Except that's not what Agent is saying. They're saying that being in a EULA doesn't inherently make something enforceable, which is true. A court can decide that part of a EULA isn't enforceable. But that's nowhere near saying "Screw EULAs" - it's more like saying "Screw clauses in EULAs that try to remove inherent legal rights". And those inherent legal rights aren't global, incidentally: the EU ruling only applies to EU citizens. Live in America and that EULA clause still applies. Plus, the rest of the EULA still stands. I don't have a game EULA handy at the minute, but read through all the clauses: the only one that has been invalidated is the one saying you can't resell your license to use the software. Anything else the EULA forbids is still forbidden.
From an opinion viewpoint I know exactly where you're coming from; there's a lot of stuff in software licensing and EULAs that is draconian and ridiculous, and I can understand the desire to just ignore it. But from a legal viewpoint, it simply not a valid approach. Nothing that has happened in law has invalidated EULAs as a whole. They remain legally binding unless individually challenged and overturned. They can't remove any of your legal rights, but unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that you have a legal right to do something that a EULA is suppressing, then you have to stick to the EULA to act within the law.
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scaryjim
Except that's not what Agent is saying. They're saying that being in a EULA doesn't inherently make something enforceable, which is true. A court can decide that part of a EULA isn't enforceable. But that's nowhere near saying "Screw EULAs" - it's more like saying "Screw clauses in EULAs that try to remove inherent legal rights". And those inherent legal rights aren't global, incidentally: the EU ruling only applies to EU citizens. Live in America and that EULA clause still applies. Plus, the rest of the EULA still stands. I don't have a game EULA handy at the minute, but read through all the clauses: the only one that has been invalidated is the one saying you can't resell your license to use the software. Anything else the EULA forbids is still forbidden.
From an opinion viewpoint I know exactly where you're coming from; there's a lot of stuff in software licensing and EULAs that is draconian and ridiculous, and I can understand the desire to just ignore it. But from a legal viewpoint, it simply not a valid approach. Nothing that has happened in law has invalidated EULAs as a whole. They remain legally binding unless individually challenged and overturned. They can't remove any of your legal rights, but unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that you have a legal right to do something that a EULA is suppressing, then you have to stick to the EULA to act within the law.
No they didn't say screw EULA's. I did! I see everyone's points n all but I'm just tired of big companies raping people all the time. I think you people are properly crazy if you agree it's acceptable to be expected to buy a new copy of the OS each time you replace a component in your computer. I could go into it all further to explain my point more but I think this debate has run it's course really. I do enjoy a good debate though so thanks you guys haha :)
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZaO
I think you people are properly crazy if you agree it's acceptable to be expected to buy a new copy of the OS each time you replace a component in your computer.
Nobody is suggesting that. We're saying that you're not entitled to transfer your OEM license to a brand new computer, as you suggested the OP do.
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
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Originally Posted by
directhex
Because if you violate your license, Microsoft are well within their rights to terminate your license - they actually explicitly spell out that right in the license.
You can't deprive someone of their lawfully acquired property. I believe that's also known as theft, a criminal act.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
Even most people on here arguing for the licensing terms is unlikely to be following all the rules - e.g. did you know your license is only valid if you stick the CD key to your case?
No, the license is valid upon purchase, they can't claim intellectual property is property, and not infer ownership upon purchase.
Again, license terms can not override your statutory rights, or any other laws passed by parliament.
Re: Windows 7 Reinstallation Disc?
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Originally Posted by
aidanjt
You can't deprive someone of their lawfully acquired property. I believe that's also known as theft, a criminal act.
I'm pretty sure MS won't demand the return of your install discs. You pay for the right to use the software in accordance with the terms and conditions stipulated in the EULA. If you breach that contract MS are quite entitled to withdraw your right to use the software.
Which is, if course, one of the most contentious issues with software - it lies somewhere between a retail purchase and a service contract. When you buy a copy of software you don't buy the software outright, and it's not yours to do with as you please - it's not like buying an MP3 player or a toaster. But because you buy it in a nice box from a shop you feel like it should be...