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Thread: Windows 7 or Windows 8

  1. #17
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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    Takes a short while to get used to, but claiming it is 'unusable' is ridiculous.
    It's not ridiculous - it's a simple fact for me. In it's default state, Windows 8 has a UI which is unusable for me. Maybe you have different requirements to me, that's all well and good, but you can't take your experience and imply that someone else's is void because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    So aside from the fact that the start menu is full screen what's the problem with Win8? What is harder to do?
    The start menu is full screen? Hardly just that. If that's what it actually was there wouldn't be an issue.

    I honestly don't know where to start with what's wrong / harder to do. It's more of a case of what does it do right for me (which isn't much).

    It's disjointed in almost every way. Launching an app? Is it on the desktop or metro? Jumping between them is a disaster, a simple press of the Windows key doesn't take you back to the desktop - it takes you back to the previous app. You end up with this weird situation where launching the default browser will open in metro, yet you fire up Photoshop and you're on the desktop. The usability of using the browser and a desktop app at this point is zero. You have two distinctively different ecosystems that have their own working space.
    This is bad with a lot of common applications, but when you start to code....jeeeeeze...I can't begin to explain the horror of trying to use an IDE like Visual Studio, a browser and something simple like a music player with Metro in place. It's horrid. I am constantly fighting the UI and in many cases, trying to figure out how to do things (Don't even get me started on the abysmal 'charms' menu)

    This disjointedness is bad enough for home users, but drop it into a work environment and you have an entire host of different issues.

    And to top it off - some apps come with advertising built in from the MS Store. Not downloaded apps. Default ones. Hang on MS... I just PAID for this OS, why are there adverts in your default installed apps?

    There are many other issues with have annoyed me (such as dropping Aero), but they are not usability issues as such.

    For me, there is no "short while to get used to" as I use the OS for more than browsing and mobile like apps. It's unusable for me in it's default state when it comes to multitasking and coding, to claim otherwise is ridiculous

    Then again, if you think Metro is just a full screen start menu then you probably don't use your machine in the same way as those who have issues with it.

    I just wouldn't use the OS without Start8.

    -edit
    There are a host of very respectable websites explaining the issues in depth. There is little point me going through them all again, because they're spot on:

    http://www.zdnet.com/what-not-to-buy...ps-7000007557/
    http://www.itproportal.com/2012/10/2...ktop-disaster/
    http://www.osnews.com/story/25951/Wh...with_Windows_8

    Contrary to popular belief, Metro is not a replacement for the Start Menu. Metro is a replacement for the Explorer Shell. The Explorer Shell itself has been turned into an application. Traditional applications run within this Explorer Shell, and cannot be managed from Metro. In other words, the Explorer Shell has become an application with a multiple document interface, running in Metro.

    This, right here, is the main reason why Windows 8 is such a pain to use with a mouse and keyboard. You can't directly switch to a desktop application; you always have to first switch to the Explorer Shell, and then switch to the desktop application you want running within the Explorer Shell. This is a convoluted way of using my computer, especially since Metro itself isn't mouse-friendly to begin with, with finicky hot corners and UI elements that are too volatile.

    Consider this. To switch to a Chrome browser tab, you have to: switch to the Explorer Shell in the Metro application switcher (and hope this doesn't go wrong), switch to Chrome in the traditional taskbar, and then switch to the right tab within Chrome. This is insanity. Whenever I go through this in Windows 8, I hear this playing in my head.

    It's not a technical issue. Microsoft could easily integrate the two much more efficiently and more fluently if they wanted to. No, the real issue is that Microsoft doesn't want to, because (and here's the pill that's so tough for some to swallow) the Explorer Shell is being deprecated. It's dead. It needs to be cumbersome and unpleasant because Microsoft hopes this will make users demand Metro versions of their favourite applications.

    Trying to shoehorn a tablet/smartphone user interface paradigm into a desktop/laptop computer is just as flawed as trying to do it the other way around. Unless Microsoft has some sort of grand plan to reintroduce proper window management into Metro, I don't see how I could ever get any serious form of work done with it.
    Last edited by Agent; 29-12-2012 at 07:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post
    Then again, if you think Metro is just a full screen start menu then you probably don't use your machine in the same way as those who have issues with it.
    If you have issues with Metro then just don't use it..

    I can't understand people that say they don't like the way Metro works and yet choose to use it despite having the choice not to.
    No one is forcing you to use Metro apps.

    It's like complaining about windows because you don't like IE, you are perfectly free to use Firefox/Chrome instead.

    I also don't get why starting on the Metro UI is bad, it's just like starting windows with the start menu open, first thing I do when I log in is to open a program, so having the menu open is just saving me a click. In the worst case scenario you are only one click away from the desktop anyway.

  3. #19
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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    If you have issues with Metro then just don't use it..
    You don't have a choice but to use Metro though in Windows 8 default state. You have to install 3rd party software to change it.

    This is why I said W8 was unusable in it's default state for me. You then claimed this was "ridiculous", only to tell me not to use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    I can't understand people that say they don't like the way Metro works and yet choose to use it despite having the choice not to.
    No one is forcing you to use Metro apps.
    Again, you don't have a choice but to use Metro. You boot Windows 8 = Metro. You press the start menu = Metro. You load an app from Metro = you have no idea if that's a Metro app or a desktop one unless you remember it. This gets much worse when you have apps that have two entries in Metro, both with the same Icon. There is no enforcement from MS on this, you just have to live with it and hope you get the right one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    It's like complaining about windows because you don't like IE, you are perfectly free to use Firefox/Chrome instead.
    Eh? A browser is an application that runs within a shell. What we are discussing here is the Metro interface, which is a replacement for the explorer shell. You're analogy doesn't even work.

    That to one side, we're talking about basic OS functionality here. A few minutes ago you were claiming that my comment about W8 being unusable in it's default state for many people was "ridiculous", despite similar comments being echoed by several high profile review sites. Now you're saying we're free to use other applications to alter the OS. If it's not an issue as you asserted above, why would we need to do this?

    I'm not trying to catch you out here, but basically OS functionality shouldn't need to be installed back in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    I also don't get why starting on the Metro UI is bad, it's just like starting windows with the start menu open
    Simply having the UI open isn't an issue in it's own right, it's how it integrates with everything else is. But again it's much more than just having the start menu open, it's a total shell replacement by design. This is the crux for most people who have issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    first thing I do when I log in is to open a program, so having the menu open is just saving me a click. In the worst case scenario you are only one click away from the desktop anyway.
    Cool - glad it works for you
    For me, I much prefer the work flow of Windows key -> few letters -> enter. I rarely use the mouse to click icons. I prefer to tab through things where I can to as it's much faster.

    The issue with Metro being there by default for me is how it interfaces with the Windows key (As well as everything above). Pressing the Windows key toggles between the last used app as I'm sure you know, this isn't useful when there is two Metro apps running at a given time. To get back to the desktop at this stage using the keyboard, you actually need to start typing "desktop" before hitting enter. Terrible workflow

    What method to you use for your "one click" to desktop? Do you click the desktop icon every time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    I was offered an ultra book with windows 8 and it being non touch based I am also unsure whether to take it. Boot up times are good!

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    You might as well say that any operating system is unusable in it's default state. Until you have installed software the OS does nothing, it is simply there to enable other applications to run.

    You can choose to make Metro nothing more than a glorified start menu, if you do that then there is no downside. Once you have the applications you need open you don't need to use the Metro interface. You open your browser, Photoshop and Visual Studio and then you just stay in desktop mode.

    If you don't have any Metro apps open, which you can choose not to do then the windows key will take you straight back to the desktop by default. But presumably if you went into Metro it was only to launch a desktop app, in which case that will take you to the desktop automatically.

  6. #22
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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    You might as well say that any operating system is unusable in it's default state. Until you have installed software the OS does nothing, it is simply there to enable other applications to run.
    But an OS has to have functionality in it's own right, otherwise there isn't much operating going on

    When the prior OS from MS has a perfectly usable interface for me, yet the new one doesn't, then you can hopefully see why my statement of it being unusable in it's default state isn't "ridiculous" at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    You can choose to make Metro nothing more than a glorified start menu, if you do that then there is no downside. Once you have the applications you need open you don't need to use the Metro interface. You open your browser, Photoshop and Visual Studio and then you just stay in desktop mode.
    That's great if you're sticking to 3 applications at a time, but as soon as I wish to launch another one, I'm back to the same situation as detailed above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    If you don't have any Metro apps open, which you can choose not to do then the windows key will take you straight back to the desktop by default.
    Ahh, but then we're back to the "what the hells going to launch in Metro and what's on the desktop" situation. Not fun and certainly not what I expect from a new UI system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    But presumably if you went into Metro it was only to launch a desktop app, in which case that will take you to the desktop automatically.
    Yep, but then you need to remember not to launch anything which might be in metro after. It's more about disruption of work flow at this stage. If I press the windows key and then start to type in "interne" for IE and hit enter, it's going to stick it in Metro and not the desktop. I suppose I could make shortcuts for it on the desktop, but that means I need to use the mouse just to launch it.

    Either way, I think we're just at the stage where I'm not happy with Metro (but am with Windows 8 in general) and you're happy with both We both seem to use it in different ways and can do so, even if I need 3rd party apps

    I'd still recommend Windows 8 to people, as crazy as that sounds, as it's actually a good OS (and fast!). Just don't be scared to dislike Metro and look for alternatives. I found my workflow speed went through the roof as soon as I did.

    Now, just to get around to playing with directory opus again.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Then just don't install any Metro apps and there will be no confusion.

    I think we are in agreement that windows 8 is fine but Metro is silly. It's just that I don't find it difficult not to use Metro apps.

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Unless i'm missing a beat skype on win8 is a pain in the arse, I don't see notifications without going into the app screen so I end up missing messages until I remember to check back.

    Vista was woeful so when 7 was released it was like a breath of fresh air they seemed to have taken a step back again.


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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    I liked W95. So much simpler than 3.11. W98 was pretty rubbish until they released W98SE.
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexl View Post
    Unless i'm missing a beat skype on win8 is a pain in the arse, I don't see notifications without going into the app screen so I end up missing messages until I remember to check back.
    Again, this is just a choice you make as a user. Don't like the Metro version of Skype? Then use the desktop version which works just like it did before.

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    I think the most honest conclusion is, Windows 8 is still just out of the starting gate, which clearly means it is not yet a matured product. On top of that the market is still adapting and moulding to it with app provisioning. Buy windows 8 pro upgrade while it is cheap. Use windows 7. In 6 months time upgrade and you'll get the best of both worlds.

    The lean hardware requirements are what really sells it for me. The tuned windows 8 core, is very system efficient, meaning it can run very light on its feet if configured thoroughly.

    We got use to the jump from traditional mobiles to ios or andriod (as e.gs). With time, windows 8 usability will improve. For now, adding Start 8 to the desktop mode, helps make the transition much easier.

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Windows 8 is for mobile and tablet devices. install windows 7, windows 8 isnt bad but its not good for gamers. i read many articles and thats what i found.

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    Couldn't agree more. Seems Microsoft have an 'A' and 'B' team when it comes to OS development

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    Re: Windows 7 or Windows 8

    I would use win 7 ultimate, tried win 8 the other day, not impress with it

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