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Thread: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

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    Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    A friend has asked me to help her buy a laptop. I've had a look around and really struggling to find many with Win7 installed, they're almost all Win8 and I'd rather she use Windows 7 until there's been a bit of time for Win8 to get patched a bit, maybe wait for the first service pack.

    So I had a look online and it seems she's entitled to run Windows 7 on a Windows 8 laptop - http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/lice...id=Uk8IlCDcv4n

    Reading through that page though it describes part of the process as "Obtain genuine Windows media and a corresponding product key for the version of Windows that is eligible for downgrade." Does this mean she is expected to buy a copy of Windows 7? I thought the eligibility meant that she was already legally entitled to run Windows 7 on her laptop if she buys one with Windows 8 preinstalled?

    My plan was to use my own Win7 Home Premium x64 disc but if I use my own product key then I'll be breaching my own entitlement won't I? Or does it just not work like that?


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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Why on earth would you want her to use a less secure, slower, more battery consuming operating system?

    Is there some peice of software that is really needed, and so badly written it can't run on 8?
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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed


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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    I'd echo what TheAnimus said.

    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
    ....until there's been a bit of time for Win8 to get patched a bit, maybe wait for the first service pack.
    There may be a long wait as I understand MS are pushing more through the regular Windows Update mechanism than they did for previous versions.

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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Why on earth would you want her to use a less secure, slower, more battery consuming operating system?

    Is there some peice of software that is really needed, and so badly written it can't run on 8?
    Because I want her to use a more stable, better patched, better supported and more user-friendly one.

    Every time I've upgraded to a new version of Windows the first 6 - 12 months have been mixed in terms of stability. Vista was the worst by a long way but my first few months with 2000, XP and 7 after Vista all had their share of frustrations.

    It's not just about the OS either though - there will always be issues with hardware drivers and some apps needing updates to work properly with a new OS, so I stand by my reasons for recommending she use Win 7, for the first while at any rate.

    Perfect, thanks - had a quick look, seems to cover what I need to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake_UK View Post
    I'd echo what TheAnimus said.



    There may be a long wait as I understand MS are pushing more through the regular Windows Update mechanism than they did for previous versions.
    Fair enough, if not a service pack then at least allow enough time for the worst of the bugs to get patched through WU.


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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Fair enough. The reason I've looked at it is I'm about to build a new gaming machine which means (at least until Valve hurries along development of games for Linux) I really need to install Windows and WINE isn't really up to the latest ang greatest new releases. From what I'd read on the subject there was hardly any difference in performance between 7 and 8 and only some minor issues with compatibility (one specific detail setting in one game IIRC from what I read) and so I was going to go with 8. Have you seen anything to the contrary you could point me to?

    TIA

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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
    Every time I've upgraded to a new version of Windows the first 6 - 12 months have been mixed in terms of stability. Vista was the worst by a long way but my first few months with 2000, XP and 7 after Vista all had their share of frustrations.

    It's not just about the OS either though - there will always be issues with hardware drivers and some apps needing updates to work properly with a new OS, so I stand by my reasons for recommending she use Win 7, for the first while at any rate.
    Uh hu.

    I'd really advise against that.

    NT4,2K,XP all had really quite big leaps to be made.

    Vista was huge, astonishingly differen't. Many drivers played badly with it, having had the WDM changed so many times.

    7 was pretty much from day 1 OK, few if any real world bugs. I nor any of my clients encountered any.

    8 is pretty much a quantom of a leap, its tiny, tiny, tiny. I've found no bugs, nothing that doesn't work. There also hasn't been a usability change in a service pack I can think of for about 7 years.

    So no 'app' should need an update, unless they are doing something very naughty, few drivers will need an update. Your biggest 'bug risk' will be the combination of hardware and quality of the testing of the unit you buy. Because of this, downgrading might well increase the risk of things that go wrong! Myself, I would say a cleaned up version of windows 8, without any of the crud they might try and thrust on it, would give you the best experiance. That would also be my proffessional opinion if you where trying to buy a platform to run some code of mine.
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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake_UK View Post
    Fair enough. The reason I've looked at it is I'm about to build a new gaming machine which means (at least until Valve hurries along development of games for Linux) I really need to install Windows and WINE isn't really up to the latest ang greatest new releases. From what I'd read on the subject there was hardly any difference in performance between 7 and 8 and only some minor issues with compatibility (one specific detail setting in one game IIRC from what I read) and so I was going to go with 8. Have you seen anything to the contrary you could point me to?

    TIA
    No but then I haven't really been looking - as I said before past experience with new versions of Windows has led me to leave them be for a while so when I built my own new gaming PC in November I just stuck with Win 7. I have read that performance isn't really much different but I can't stand the Metro interface personally and I haven't seen any new features which appeal to me so I had no reason to consider going to Win8.


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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Uh hu.

    I'd really advise against that.
    I don't care, I didn't ask for your advice, I asked what was involved in downgrading. I'm trained, experienced and capable enough to make my own informed decisions thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    NT4,2K,XP all had really quite big leaps to be made.

    Vista was huge, astonishingly differen't. Many drivers played badly with it, having had the WDM changed so many times.

    7 was pretty much from day 1 OK, few if any real world bugs. I nor any of my clients encountered any.
    I did. If there were so few bugs then how come it took a couple of hours of Windows Updates when I reinstalled Win7 recently after building a new PC? 18MB broadband BTW, before you suggest that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    8 is pretty much a quantom of a leap, its tiny, tiny, tiny. I've found no bugs, nothing that doesn't work. There also hasn't been a usability change in a service pack I can think of for about 7 years.
    The UI isn't a huge change to you? Seriously? OK you can't call that a bug (debatable) but it is a big change and one that I'm not comfortable with.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    So no 'app' should need an update, unless they are doing something very naughty, few drivers will need an update. Your biggest 'bug risk' will be the combination of hardware and quality of the testing of the unit you buy.
    I found iTunes was a pain when I first moved to Vista and then again to Win7 for a start. Firefox also. iTunes is one of my friend's main requirements so that alone leads me to tread carefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Because of this, downgrading might well increase the risk of things that go wrong! Myself, I would say a cleaned up version of windows 8, without any of the crud they might try and thrust on it, would give you the best experiance.
    Metro aside, we'll see what happens over the coming months then as business and home users start finding bugs, not to mention security researchers uncovering new vulnerabilities in new code.

    I'm not saying MS and Windows are the only OS that this happens with, far from it - Apple have their own challenges, as do the more popular Linux distros, just that in this context it's a Windows PC my friend wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    That would also be my proffessional opinion if you where trying to buy a platform to run some code of mine.
    Correction, that was your unsolicited opinion. Maybe just a pet hate of mine but I *really* can't stand it when I ask a perfectly reasonable question and someone posts and effectively says "no no no you're doing it all wrong".


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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
    Correction, that was your unsolicited opinion. Maybe just a pet hate of mine but I *really* can't stand it when I ask a perfectly reasonable question and someone posts and effectively says "no no no you're doing it all wrong".
    I suggest you fix that. The title "Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed" suggests you need help in going about doing something. It is perfectly valid to question the motives for doing so. Hell half of my job is when someone says "why can't class xyz, do abc" is to remind people, if your only tool is a hammer you think everything is a nail. I suggest that not listening to someone saying what your doing is dumb, is really dumb.

    You glossed over the part that most packages of machines made now, have been running windows 8 for almost half a year since RTM. As such going back to older version of software is stupid, because there will be all kinds of things that might not have been tested. I am frankly confused as to how you think that will be solid and relible yet running a version of windows which has been patched and tested for 6 monthly cycles isn't?!

    You talk about the update time of windows 7, well why not use Vista? Or XP? It's about effective bugs, ones that will hurt you in your use cases, vs performance improvements. In many ways Windows 8 is a service pack roll up. Many fixes have been included. In fact we've already seen a few 0day vulns which 8 is impervious too.

    So my question is what features of windows 8 are likely to create bugs which don't exist in 7? Well the whole Modern UI stuff, which you've said you don't care about, some changes to the way hybernation/resume kick in, but if the laptop has been built around that, and say has some readyboost, then in fact it will be a massive step backwards.

    Now, I put back to you that the rollback will be costly in time, costly in media (unless you have a valid license for an existing media kit, but if so, why post here!) and costly in the future (surely the upgrade should happen at some point?).

    But let me guess, you just want to say you didn't ask for my advice, only help on something else. Hammer the screws in hard enough and yes, they will stick.
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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
    A friend has asked me to help her buy a laptop. I've had a look around and really struggling to find many with Win7 installed, they're almost all Win8 and I'd rather she use Windows 7 until there's been a bit of time for Win8 to get patched a bit, maybe wait for the first service pack.
    Just a thought, but have you bothered asking her what she'd rather use?

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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    I suggest you fix that. The title "Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed" suggests you need help in going about doing something. It is perfectly valid to question the motives for doing so. Hell half of my job is when someone says "why can't class xyz, do abc" is to remind people, if your only tool is a hammer you think everything is a nail. I suggest that not listening to someone saying what your doing is dumb, is really dumb.
    The title of the thread was perfectly clear - it says I would like some help with how to go about rolling back an OEM installed Win8 to Win7. I don't see what's ambiguous about that, and it wasn't intended to invite philosophical debate on whether that's a good idea. Moreover, it wasn't intended to invite opinionated rantings like:

    "Why on earth would you want her to use a less secure, slower, more battery consuming operating system?

    Is there some peice of software that is really needed, and so badly written it can't run on 8? "

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    You glossed over the part that most packages of machines made now, have been running windows 8 for almost half a year since RTM. As such going back to older version of software is stupid, because there will be all kinds of things that might not have been tested. I am frankly confused as to how you think that will be solid and relible yet running a version of windows which has been patched and tested for 6 monthly cycles isn't?!
    I didn't "gloss over" anything. I don't believe that there will be any hardware in the laptops I'm considering that won't have Win7 drivers available, I'm not looking at anything really cutting edge for her. On the basis that the hardware will be fairly standard stuff and Windows 7 is a current, supported operating system I fail to see how it can be any worse really on Windows 8.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    You talk about the update time of windows 7, well why not use Vista? Or XP?
    Cheap shot, nice one man.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    It's about effective bugs, ones that will hurt you in your use cases, vs performance improvements. In many ways Windows 8 is a service pack roll up. Many fixes have been included. In fact we've already seen a few 0day vulns which 8 is impervious too.
    I made that perfectly clear too, in my view. I have had certain issues with *every* new version of an operating system in the early days so my personal approach now is to wait a while until they get patched a bit. You seem to suggest that Windows 8 is better than 7 simply because it's new. So what if there are 0day vulns still in Win7 and earlier that aren't in Win8, do you really think its' impossible that Win8 has none of its' own?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    So my question is what features of windows 8 are likely to create bugs which don't exist in 7? Well the whole Modern UI stuff, which you've said you don't care about, some changes to the way hybernation/resume kick in, but if the laptop has been built around that, and say has some readyboost, then in fact it will be a massive step backwards.
    Is that not enough of a list to start with? There could (and again in my experience, both personal and professional) well be issues with any of the new features. Based on what you've posted it sounds like you're in software development, surely you can't be suggesting that new code can't possibly contain bugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Now, I put back to you that the rollback will be costly in time, costly in media (unless you have a valid license for an existing media kit, but if so, why post here!) and costly in the future (surely the upgrade should happen at some point?).
    I'd sooner help my friend get set up with a laptop that she's going to understand, do all the things she wants it to and do them in a reliable fashion. She's pretty non-computer literate so it needs to be as familiar and easy to use as possible, she uses Windows 7 at work so after discussion with her we agreed to look at going back to Windows 7, at least for the time being.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    But let me guess, you just want to say you didn't ask for my advice, only help on something else. Hammer the screws in hard enough and yes, they will stick.
    But I didn't come here to ask for your advice. I don't even know who you are, how could I know if I want your advice or not? I posted asking a clear question about the process involved in downgrading to Windows 7 from an OEM 8 install and got a pile of bluster - "why on earth..." "badly written app...". Really, how constructive was that?

    Read my original post again. In particular, read the sentences which are terminated with question marks. Those are the ones where I ask something. Now consider what I'm asking. I specifically asked questions around the eligibility to do this and the implications of using an already registered licence key. Not how to actually perform the install, nor is it a good idea or not. Responses to those questions were welcomed, indeed some questioning of the motives would have been welcome too, but your post came across as opinionated and arrogant and that is what I took exception to.

    I hope for your sake you don't talk to your clients like this.


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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Just a thought, but have you bothered asking her what she'd rather use?
    Yes Discussed with her at the outset.


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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
    But I didn't come here to ask for your advice.
    This post is a little warm for the usual unpersonal hexus experience, but it should be clear that any post on a forum is exactly an invitation for others to post their opinions when they are on a related topic. That's the purpose of a discussion board. I'd hate to think that we are no longer to treat open threads as open to all reasonable views. And you'd be open to just ignore them, or counter them respectfully if you like.

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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
    I hope for your sake you don't talk to your clients like this.
    I do, I have a track record in turning around developments so they listen, even more so when they don't like what I'm telling them. They don't pay me for small talk, they pay me to fix the processes, that involves honesty, sometimes telling them they've wasted tens of millions, stop loss.

    I'll say it again.

    If your being dumb, and someone says your being dumb, when you ignore them its really dumb.

    Your response to my comment about costs of rolling back shows that you really don't understand.

    But anyway, on with the hammering.
    Quote Originally Posted by MS
    Rights to OEM versions of system software are granted in the OEM License Terms. The OEM License Terms for Windows 8 Pro, Windows 7 Professional, Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Vista Business, and Windows Vista Ultimate operating systems grant downgrade rights. See the full text of the OEM License Terms for the specific downgrade rights.
    Please refer to the OEM license terms for complete details.
    So you need the OEMs version for 7.

    Again, before you set out on this endever, why?! Windows 8 has fewer significant changes from a software dev point of view than XP -> SP2 did, much fewer.

    There also haven't been any interface changes in SPs since XP. I don't know why you think there will be one coming in 8. MS haven't warned us of any (they did about SP2).

    So I've tried to explain that expecting the 'bugs' is stupid.
    I've tried to explain that down grading to a combination that isn't going to be supported nesecerrally by the OEM is stupid.
    I've explained that surely you going to want to upgrade at some point (which will likely cause iTunes to have a hissy fit and delete everything, because iTunes likes to do that if someone so muches as farts) which is stupid.

    So the benefits I think are all imagined by you, not based on any real world usage based on what you've said. You don't appear to be aware of the downsides (ie legally to do this you need OEM help).

    Sure, complain I provide you with a simple solution, cheaper solution, arguably better, rather than the awnser you wanted.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  17. #16
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    Re: Downgrade Win8 preinstalled to Win7 - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    This post is a little warm for the usual unpersonal hexus experience, but it should be clear that any post on a forum is exactly an invitation for others to post their opinions when they are on a related topic. That's the purpose of a discussion board. I'd hate to think that we are no longer to treat open threads as open to all reasonable views. And you'd be open to just ignore them, or counter them respectfully if you like.
    Are you a moderator? Not being funny, just asking.


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