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Thread: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

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    I'm special azrael-'s Avatar
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    Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    I don't know if this has been posted before, but I've just learned about this in the updated Microsoft Services Agreement effective 1 August 2015:

    Sometimes you’ll need software updates to keep using the Services. We may automatically check your version of the software and download software updates or configuration changes, including those that prevent you from accessing the Services, playing counterfeit games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices.
    I find this highly disturbing. If I'm not mistaken this also governs the use of Windows.

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    Super Moderator Jonj1611's Avatar
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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Looks like that applies more to the Xbox One
    Jon

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    It's not new. It's just that people are paying attention now. That language, and language very similar to it, exists all the way back to WinXP and the original X-Box. And there were the occasional mass bans from people running soft/hard modded X-Boxes.

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    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Yeah the way I'm interpreting it, since they've consolidated the terms it just looks like a console-related part. I don't think there could realistically be 'unauthorised hardware' for Windows systems for instance.

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Yeah, seems console related to me.

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    AFAIK this isn't only related to consoles as the Windows 10 EULA says your bound by the terms of the Microsoft Services Agreement, so while the Microsoft Services Agreement may not specifically mention Windows the Windows 10 EULA does legally bind you to the terms contained with the MSA, at least I think it does.

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    Seriously casual gamer KeyboardDemon's Avatar
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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Yeah the way I'm interpreting it, since they've consolidated the terms it just looks like a console-related part. I don't think there could realistically be 'unauthorised hardware' for Windows systems for instance.
    Maybe Microsoft are planning to stop Windows 10 users from playing games with a PS4 controller.

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    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Back to playing the classics with the 360 d-pad then! :shudder:

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    It covers the services listed here: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servi.../#serviceslist

    Windows 10 is NOT a listed services, although a lot of services you may use through a Windows 10 PC are.

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    The problem is that section 14 of the Windows 10 EULA that people agree to when installing Windows 10 says the following...
    Entire Agreement. This agreement (together with the printed paper license terms or other terms accompanying any software supplements, updates, and services that are provided by the manufacturer or installer, or Microsoft, and that you use), and the terms contained in web links listed in this agreement, are the entire agreement for the software and any such supplements, updates, and services (unless the manufacturer or installer, or Microsoft, provides other terms with such supplements, updates, or services). You can review this agreement after your software is running by going to (aka.ms/useterms) or going to Settings - System - About within the software. You can also review the terms at any of the links in this agreement by typing the URLs into a browser address bar, and you agree to do so. You agree that you will read the terms before using the software or services, including any linked terms. You understand that by using the software and services, you ratify this agreement and the linked terms. There are also informational links in this agreement. The links containing notices and binding terms are:

    · Windows 10 Privacy Statement (aka.ms/privacy)

    · Microsoft Services Agreement (aka.ms/msa)

    · Adobe Flash Player License Terms (aka.ms/adobeflash)
    Emphasis added to highlight that the Windows 10 EULA (afaik) legally binds you to the MSA.

    So while the MSA may not mention Windows specifically the Windows 10 EULA in effect contains the terms laid out in the MSA.

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by KeyboardDemon View Post
    Maybe Microsoft are planning to stop Windows 10 users from playing games with a PS4 controller.
    That would be the most evil thing ever...

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    ... So while the MSA may not mention Windows specifically the Windows 10 EULA in effect contains the terms laid out in the MSA.
    Yes, the Windows 10 EULA binds you to the MSA, but the MSA only applies to the services it applies to. Stating in the Windows 10 EULA that you're bound by an agreement doesn't suddenly broaden the scope of that agreement. The MSA itself contains the list of services to which it applies. If a service isn't on that list, the MSA doesn't apply to it, regardless of where else it's mentioned.

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    So where is the copy of Windows 10 without the services listed in the MSA?

    It's a bit like those broadband companies that tell you it only costs £5.99 pcm, what they only tell you in the small print is that you have to pay £15.99 for line rental from BT. It's all well and good saying something doesn't apply because its not listed as a service (probably because Windows is not a service (yet)) but when you can't use that something without also using those services then the terms de facto cover that something.

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    So where is the copy of Windows 10 without the services listed in the MSA? ...
    Some of those services are certainly embedded in Windows 10, which is why the EULA mentions the MSA: so there is no ambiguity over the terms that apply to your use of those services.

    It doesn't mean that terms in the MSA apply to aspects of Windows 10 outside of those services. Windows 10 updates that aren't part of "the services" will have their own terms and conditions, which will be different.

    To go back to your first post in this thread:

    AFAIK this isn't only related to consoles as the Windows 10 EULA says your bound by the terms of the Microsoft Services Agreement, so while the Microsoft Services Agreement may not specifically mention Windows the Windows 10 EULA does legally bind you to the terms contained with the MSA, at least I think it does.
    The Windows 10 EULA states that by using certain "software and services" you agree to be bound by certain other terms. However, the MSA starts with the sentence "These terms (“Terms”) cover the use of those Microsoft’s consumer products, websites, and services listed here (the “Services”)."

    So the Windows 10 EULA binds you to the MSA, but the MSA explicitly limits its own scope to a fixed subset of MS services. That means any service not listed in the "Covered Services" section of the MSA is explicitly not covered by the MSA. The MSA only applies to your use of those services. End of story. There's not even any legalese to wade through there. If MS want to mess with your use of Windows, they can only do it within the limits of those listed services (until/unless they update the covered services list, obviously).

    Of course, there may be other parts of the EULA or other agreements that they can screw you under, but the hype over MSA is massively overblown.

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    ...

    Of course, there may be other parts of the EULA or other agreements that they can screw you under, but the hype over MSA is massively overblown.
    Only if you avoid all those services, and thus, the MSA.

    But of course, a fair bit of what MS have been heavily promoting as being the advantages of Win10 require those services, so it seems users have a choice of full Win10, and being bound by EULA & MSA, or a castrated Win10 and just being bound by EULA .... assuming users are astute enough to realise they can avoid having an MS account when they install.

    But then, when you compare the castrated Win10 to Win7, or Win8.x with Start8 or ClassicShell, you may start to wonder if you need/want Win10 at all.

    Seems to me MS are involved in a wholesale paradigm shift with Win10, and what worries me is that if this is a stepping stone, what the end positioning is?

    And, they're fully aware that a proportion of users won't like it, will detest it, will refuse to go along with it. Including me. But they've self-evidently decided (as they went ahead) that their attitude is "oh well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet", and that the bulk of users either won't know enough to know better, or will know enough but won't care.

    Fair enough. MS have the right to do that. But for me, they can stuff it in a place rarely illuminated by the sun.

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    Re: Disturbing update to Microsoft's Services Agreement

    Just for future reference -

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/29404...-and-wine.html

    Anyone contemplating a move to Linux on a more than part time basis, do the world and yourself a favor and buy Crossover - it will run, right now, 85-90% of Windows software natively (DX11 being the real holdup) including things like Office pre 365, etc. This page shows a very short list of very popular games that run as well (or better) as they do on Windows. And none of them are Linux native ports. Why buy instead of waiting for 6 months for it to come to Wine for free? Because it insures that they stick around for another 10 years and keep making better translators.

    I'm very close to making a permanent move. DX11 support might just be the final catalyst for me. I haven't decided yet. Most of what MS has thrown out with 10, I can either deal with or ignore, at least on 1 or 2 machines. I have a professional grade Cisco hardware firewall - blocking MS is a non-issue. Just a matter of ticking off a radio button or two. Not everyone does, nor, do I imagine, does everyone have access to one, period. They aren't cheap, and they aren't common. But as a consumer, I shouldn't find myself in a position to be fighting the provider of my OS for my own privacy or my own use. I own, and either paid for or was gifted every piece of software in my possession. What I may or may not do with them are not in the domain of MS's need to know. For that matter, I blew their EULA and all other terms of service out of water during the beta. I broke things. I removed things. I traced things. I deep packet inspected things. I blocked things from both the inbound and outbound, just to see what happened overall. And I'm still removing crap that I don't want/need, regardless of how small or how little impact it makes. Calendar? Groove? Movies & TV? Mail? All gone.

    Am I mad? No. Anyone that gets mad over something that's free and isn't a requirement has issues beyond MS... I am disappointed. Other than the 1 'free' upgrade and 1 machine that will be permanently on the beta cycle (or until they decide it's buy a license or leave, at which point I leave, as there's no license at all involved), I've got any number of machines that will never see an MS product newer than Windows 7. And MS will never notice. 1 out of 50 million? The whole of Hexus could turn their backs, and it wouldn't register as a mosquito bite. Perhaps more damaging will be that I'll never recommend Win10, although I'll not go out of my way to talk people out of the install. Integrity is one thing. Cash in pocket is something else. I'll just make sure they've done their homework first - most won't care. And as long as it still runs properly behind my firewall, things will stay as is.

    As an OS, I have nothing against 10. It's arguably the best MS OS I've ever used. Things just work. That, IMO, is a great thing. I'm honestly not sure why people had as many problems as they have. I've installed on everything from old school Celerons and P4's up to Centrino netbooks to Quad Core 9550's and finally on a machine running a 6 core Xeon W3690 3.46ghz machine, all with Nvidia graphics (9800GT, FX1800 and a 9300 that was a pull from a dead E-Machine) or built in graphics. Not a glitch, other than the Dell Inspiron 1018 mini has no new drivers, which is not an issue because 10 had them built in.

    The cost is your privacy. And that's too high, in my book.

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