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Thread: Programming/coding, where to start?

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    Programming/coding, where to start?

    I'm in my 30's now and I'm looking at going back to education to get back to my first love, I.T!

    I did a BTEC in I.T a lot of years ago and am contemplating going for a part time HND and on from there.

    Could anyone recommend what's languages/software I should look at to start gathering some basic knowledge? With Java, C++... etc there's so much and I suppose at some point I'll need to gear my focus to some area.

    So frackin confused! :'(

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    have a look into a raspberry pi, there are loads of coding projects out there

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    Learn one of the scriping language first. Python is currently en-vogue.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    I actually have a Pi 2 (retro pi and openelec roms) so I've heard of Python. I just don't know what I'll be learning and how to best direct myself to a career. There's so many options.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    You should pick what you want to do then pick a language, for my field of work I'd recommend SQL as a must have but of course that's totally different to the requirements of the jobs of many others on here

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    Agreed. I know there's so many and it all depends where you want to end up. Time to browse careers and have a think!

    This growing up crap is overrated!

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    Without wanting to be That Guy - have a peek at http://forums.hexus.net/retail-thera...-plus-sub.html

    I'm not a coder, but that's a great place to look at your options, and at my favourite price.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    That's reminded me, I must go and look through there.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by abaxas View Post
    Learn one of the scriping language first. Python is currently en-vogue.
    Python's good. But be careful going with a scripting language first - you'll get stuff done but you may miss out on good practises needed for some other languages. On the other hand if you learn a compiled language, the things you learn will still work for scripting (and the script will often be easier to maintain/understand as a result.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    I have always been project based. Is there something you would like to see, and itch you want scratched, or just something that you would find fun?

    Have a look through the raspberry pi magazines, there are adverts in there for things like Pi robot kits. As a kid I wrote code that I wanted, and probably put in 60 hour weeks at times because it was more interesting than TV, read text books because there was something I wanted to do better because I had a goal in mind.

    Python is quite in vogue for scripting and automation tasks atm, but the world is written in C/C++.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    I'm a long term programmer myself, so I get where you're coming from.

    My advice would be to have a look around the tutorial sites on the Web and see what appeals. Some people find Java or C++ simple, others prefer that dangerous power that comes with C (I'm in the latter group).

    For a first language, I'd second the Python advice - the ORA books are pretty good and the language is very in vogue at present. Or if you're looking at Windows then why not C#? I've seen comments that this is better for a new guy than C++ and streets ahead of that mangled mess that is Java.

    I'm currently looking at Ruby, but mainly for work. It's like spoken languages, once you know one it's easier to pick up a second etc. I'd avoid Perl though, since it can be awfully confusing.

    HTH

    Edit: Book recommendation: "Beautiful Code: Leading Programmers Explain How They Think". 33 chapters, some of which are definitely worth reading if you want to get into the 'do it right' mindset.
    Last edited by crossy; 15-02-2016 at 10:35 AM.

    Career status: still enjoying my new career in DevOps, but it's keeping me busy...

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    you're being led down the software developer route because you mentioned languages, tricky to get into without education, often to degree level.

    are you set on that, or are you interested in support work? a smattering of knowledge ought to get you into first/second line support, progress from there.

    don't neglect powershell. will help with a support role, will help with a dev ops role. as much as i love python, 80% of IT is windows based, and its all powershell, very few shops use Python to control their environments.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by bytejunkie View Post
    you're being led down the software developer route because you mentioned languages, tricky to get into without education, often to degree level.
    Not in my experience. Yes, if you want to get a software development career then HR departments usually 'insist' on a degree. But there's no way in heck that a degree is a requirement to learn programming. Far better to have the time to roll up your sleeves and get stuck in.
    are you set on that, or are you interested in support work? a smattering of knowledge ought to get you into first/second line support, progress from there. don't neglect powershell. will help with a support role, will help with a dev ops role. as much as i love python, 80% of IT is windows based, and its all powershell, very few shops use Python to control their environments.
    Powershell's got it's place, but why the heck would you narrow yourself down to something that - since we're speaking in unsupported generalisations like your '80%' figure - pretty much gets outsourced to India etc? I'd also be VERY wary of trying to learn programming with it - anymore than I'd recommend learning oil painting with a hammer. If the OP wants to stay in the Windows area then I'll say that C# would be a far better choice than Powershell - not only is it a 'proper' programming language, (rather than a scripting one), but as such there's a whole wide vista of 'real' jobs you can do with it, (at least once you add in all the .NET stuff). Heck, might even be able to persuade him to port his C# masterpieces to Mono and get some cross-platform availability.

    By the way, I just came from a very large 'shop', specifically HP Enterprise Services (those fellas with the green rectangle as a logo) and their key in-house Windows admin tool is overwhelmingly written in Python. Mainly because, according to the developers, since Python runs relatively quickly and is cross-platform. I've also heard that IBM Global Services also use a lot of Python, along with substantial amounts of Perl code.

    Actually 'markg1981', I'd have a look at Comparison of programming languages as this gives a pretty decent overview of what's "out there". Good thing is that a lot of the current ones are available as either open source implementations or 'free', so if you've got something that'll run x86 code then you're good to go. Of course, the ole 'Pi also seems to have a goodly selection of the 'current' languages. And it's not as if a gaming PC style 'monster' is needed to host a decent dev environment (I did a good deal of dev work on an eBay'd Core2Duo laptop, which was more than capable of running a host OS and a couple of Windows/Linux/Solaris/etc VMs).
    Last edited by crossy; 16-02-2016 at 02:54 PM.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossy View Post
    ... if you're looking at Windows then why not C#? I've seen comments that this is better for a new guy than C++ and streets ahead of that mangled mess that is Java.
    I never found Java horrendous back in the day, but C# has always felt better integrated and more "useful". The only Java thing I really miss when I'm working in C# is how it handles threading, which feels more intuitive to me (although that could be because threads are complicated and I was taught them in Java rather than trying to teach myself them in C#). A big plus for C# is how good Visual Studio is, including the free editions.

    As far as learning goes, I've always sworn by SAMS teach yourself... books (still have a couple on my shelves), as they used to be very good at communicating core concepts well (not read a new edition for around a decade though, so that may have changed). One thing I will say is pick simple projects and don't expect too much from them first time you try. It'll take a lot of practice and a certain amount of intuition before you start being really happy with your own programming skills.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossy View Post
    Not in my experience. Yes, if you want to get a software development career then HR departments usually 'insist' on a degree. But there's no way in heck that a degree is a requirement to learn programming. Far better to have the time to roll up your sleeves and get stuck in.

    Powershell's got it's place, but why the heck would you narrow yourself down to something that - since we're speaking in unsupported generalisations like your '80%' figure - pretty much gets outsourced to India etc? I'd also be VERY wary of trying to learn programming with it - anymore than I'd recommend learning oil painting with a hammer. If the OP wants to stay in the Windows area then I'll say that C# would be a far better choice than Powershell - not only is it a 'proper' programming language, (rather than a scripting one), but as such there's a whole wide vista of 'real' jobs you can do with it, (at least once you add in all the .NET stuff). Heck, might even be able to persuade him to port his C# masterpieces to Mono and get some cross-platform availability.

    By the way, I just came from a very large 'shop', specifically HP Enterprise Services (those fellas with the green rectangle as a logo) and their key in-house Windows admin tool is overwhelmingly written in Python. Mainly because, according to the developers, since Python runs relatively quickly and is cross-platform. I've also heard that IBM Global Services also use a lot of Python, along with substantial amounts of Perl code.

    Actually 'markg1981', I'd have a look at Comparison of programming languages as this gives a pretty decent overview of what's "out there". Good thing is that a lot of the current ones are available as either open source implementations or 'free', so if you've got something that'll run x86 code then you're good to go. Of course, the ole 'Pi also seems to have a goodly selection of the 'current' languages. And it's not as if a gaming PC style 'monster' is needed to host a decent dev environment (I did a good deal of dev work on an eBay'd Core2Duo laptop, which was more than capable of running a host OS and a couple of Windows/Linux/Solaris/etc VMs).
    you're still leading him down the dev route. he hasn't replied yet to state whether that was his intention. he might want to do 2nd line support in which case, he'll need powershell.
    powershell outsourced to india? keep up mate. outsourcing is broken. the current trend is for foreign workers who've been part of an outsource contract working natively over here.
    also, i've used powershell in my last 5 uk based roles. i don't see it getting outsourced to india. its very key to being a good sysadmin and a pre-requisite to working in devpos, which is the way a lot of companies seem to be going.

    and then you point him back at more language stuff. im just trying to offer a balanced view of IT. he doesn't specifically say he wants to be a dev. you've missed the point.

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    Re: Programming/coding, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by bytejunkie View Post
    you're still leading him down the dev route. he hasn't replied yet to state whether that was his intention. he might want to do 2nd line support in which case, he'll need powershell.
    Granted yes, I am still "leading him down the dev route" - but then again if someone says that they're interested in "Programming/coding" then that's pretty much a safe assumption. Same way that if someone says they want to learn race driving then you don't automatically assume that they're a bank robber in training! <grin>

    And yes, I'll agree that if markg1981 wants to do 2nd line Windows support then doing Powershell is probably a very sensible approach. Then again, if 2nd line is his "thing" then I don't see any mention of platform - maybe he wants to go the open source route, in which case Powershell is a chocolate fire guard.
    Quote Originally Posted by bytejunkie View Post
    outsourced to india? keep up mate. outsourcing is broken. the current trend is for foreign workers who've been part of an outsource contract working natively over here. also, i've used powershell in my last 5 uk based roles. i don't see it getting outsourced to india. its very key to being a good sysadmin and a pre-requisite to working in devpos, which is the way a lot of companies seem to be going.
    I've been in the outsourcing trade (although not contract, and not Windows really) for more than 15 years, so I'm going solely on what I see from the big guys in that sector - the IGS, HPES, Accentures, etc. And Powershell is NOT a 'key to being a good sysadmin' - for heavens sake take those Windows blinkers off! Yes, I'd be the first to agree that it's handy to have, and probably de rigeur for WinTel dudes, but the rest of us can love it or leave it.

    By the way, is "devpos" a typo for "devops"? If so then that's what I'm doing at the moment, and it's Ruby and Java that's the big deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by bytejunkie View Post
    then you point him back at more language stuff. im just trying to offer a balanced view of IT. he doesn't specifically say he wants to be a dev. you've missed the point.
    Yes, I am offering an unbalanced view of IT, but then again so are you - since you're pushing a Windows 2nd line support as a reason to do scripting (which is what Powershell unarguably is). There's a lot more to "Programming/Coding" than that - most obvious these days being web apps design/build or IoT. Mark's question was on "Programming/Coding", not "Shell scripting", so while your views on the desirability of Powershell for Windows is unarguable, I'd politely suggest that you have missed the point. I'd also be wary of recommending a 'n00b' to programming start with a pure scripting language unless the 'itch that they had to scratch' was in that area. The point was made above that 'proper' programming languages have features that encourage/enable good design (C excluded of course - before someone else has a pop at me!)

    By the way, the Beautiful Coding book is not necessarily of interest solely to devs - there's stuff in there about (for example) the Linux kernel internals, so that'd be of interest perhaps to admins having to look after RedHat server farms etc.

    Career status: still enjoying my new career in DevOps, but it's keeping me busy...

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