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Thread: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    I get that it's positioned itself as a platform, but that doesn't mean it's shorn of a duty of care to its customers. That specifically, in this case, means providing me with the means to access this app. If that means the option to roll back the ios, meaning my carplay features no longer work, that should be on me, but it should be up to me.

    If I had physically bought the item, I would still own that item and have the choice to use it in an older system, or simply use it as an expensive paperweight. In this case, they have removed all trace of me ever having owned or paid for this app, and other than possibly jailbreaking my phone, or finding out nifty ways to roll back the ios (clearly not that simple if no-one here has been able to point me in any direction), I am left out of pocket with no recourse and nothing to show for my money.

    I would argue that the whole methodology is crooked, that any app designed for ios X necessarily needs to be compatible with ios > X, whether that be on the heads of the devs to conform to future compatibility issues as proscribed by the platform, the platform to ensure that no features get written out, nor do any new features render previous features impotent, or on both their heads. Not like the app market isn't overly flush with money.

    Anyway. It really doesn't matter much, just another way us fools who don't care to read the TOS get parted from our money by people who aren't quite rich enough yet.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I get that it's positioned itself as a platform, but that doesn't mean it's shorn of a duty of care to its customers.
    Which it fulfils to the letter of the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    That specifically, in this case, means providing me with the means to access this app.
    No, it really doesn't...
    If it did, your car stereo would still come with an 8-track player.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    If that means the option to roll back the ios, meaning my carplay features no longer work, that should be on me, but it should be up to me.
    It is still up to you and you can still do that... you just get NO support from Apple if you do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    If I had physically bought the item, I would still own that item and have the choice to use it in an older system, or simply use it as an expensive paperweight.
    So are you going to now sue all those game companies who went out of business, because they no longer support the game server you used to play on and left you with a good-for-nothing game that cannot connect and just sits on your system being deadware?
    What about suing Mercedes when you can no longer buy diesel for your 3.4L C-Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I am left out of pocket with no recourse and nothing to show for my money.
    How is this any different from all the other possibilities in business?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I would argue that the whole methodology is crooked, that any app designed for ios X necessarily needs to be compatible with...
    You're gonna have fun with all your USB devices when the new standard comes in...

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    whether that be on the heads of the devs to conform to future compatibility issues
    It's up to them whether they do or not... but it's not on them any more than it's your responsibility to learn the vernacular of the young folk in order to communicate effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    the platform to ensure that no features get written out, nor do any new features render previous features impotent
    What any third party does is not their problem any more than it's a car manufacturer's problem if you decide to drive it like a wazzock...

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Anyway. It really doesn't matter much, just another way us fools who don't care to read the TOS get parted from our money by people who aren't quite rich enough yet.
    Well if you insist on being ignorant... this is what you get. Sorry. Thanks for choosing AT&T. Goodbye.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    I suppose the developers have a duty to support the product for its lifetime. ("lifetime guarantee")

    But if its lifetime is now up, they no longer have a duty to support it. And I guess they declared end of life when the underlying OS was updated which is why its no longer shown in the app store.
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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Which it fulfils to the letter of the law.


    No, it really doesn't...
    If it did, your car stereo would still come with an 8-track player.


    It is still up to you and you can still do that... you just get NO support from Apple if you do it.


    So are you going to now sue all those game companies who went out of business, because they no longer support the game server you used to play on and left you with a good-for-nothing game that cannot connect and just sits on your system being deadware?
    What about suing Mercedes when you can no longer buy diesel for your 3.4L C-Class?


    How is this any different from all the other possibilities in business?


    You're gonna have fun with all your USB devices when the new standard comes in...


    It's up to them whether they do or not... but it's not on them any more than it's your responsibility to learn the vernacular of the young folk in order to communicate effectively.


    What any third party does is not their problem any more than it's a car manufacturer's problem if you decide to drive it like a wazzock...


    Well if you insist on being ignorant... this is what you get. Sorry. Thanks for choosing AT&T. Goodbye.
    'Wazzock' is actually the root of my online screenname.

    You make some good points, but you're still ignoring the fact that when you buy something you buy a thing, no matter whether support is offered for that product. When I play the last of us online, what I've paid for is the game, and as such, as long as I still have my PS4, I expect to be able to play that game, single-player, for as long as I can get power and have a tv. My right to play multiplayer depends on me paying the PS+ subscription, which I assume is where the money comes from for maintenance and upkeep of the servers.

    My car, even my new car, made in 2015, still has the space for me to install a single-din cassette player.

    I'm totally ok with not getting continued support from apple for a prior ios.

    When a new USB standard comes in, that's not going to render all my current USB devices and ports dead, as if they've never existed. That's what's happened here.

    What I've suggested re the relationship between consumer, platform and devs is simply my imagination of how it should be in order to be fair to the consumer. I don't perceive the current way of doing things as fair to the consumer. The whole 'third party' discussion is the problem: a shifting of blame away from who the consumer is supposed to be dealing with. If I buy a product from john lewis and they provide me with a warranty, I go to john lewis when there's a problem. If they turn around and say 'well we can't fix the problem because the manufacturer has gone out of business', then it's john lewis's responsibility to make me whole. I deal with them, I gave them money, I'm not interested in their business, and for any company to defer blame to someone else seems to me endemic to our current corporate, consumerist culture where you're supposed to feel grateful for the opportunity to waste the companies' time buying their products.

    Am I wilfully ignorant by not reading the TOS? Yes. I'm not so extremely bored, not such a sado-masochist, that I would read every single TOS every time I buy or update a product. That would be, imo, quite frankly insane.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    'Wazzock' is actually the root of my online screenname.
    I figured

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    You make some good points, but you're still ignoring the fact that when you buy something you buy a thing, no matter whether support is offered for that product.
    Not always.
    When you 'buy' software, you're usually buying just the licence to use that software in accordance with all the terms and conditions... You still have the licence to use Random-SoftWare V2.1... but 2.1 just won't work on newer stuff. Same as you still have every right to play your audiocassette, but that devices don't even have CDs any more, being all MP3 streaming DAB radio wotsit things...

    Actually - Better example - Yes, you can use your VGA monitor. You have every right.
    But graphics cards only have DisplayPort slots, now.
    Would you complain to Nvidia/AMD?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    When I play the last of us online, what I've paid for is the game, and as such, as long as I still have my PS4, I expect to be able to play that game, single-player, for as long as I can get power and have a tv.
    BANG - Some suicide bomber blows up the company that made it, along with all their game servers. The people don't exist, the servers don't exist, the company doesn't exist, the game itself doesn't exist.
    Now what?
    The installation itself still exists, but there's nothing for it to connect to and no-one to hold accountable... including the bomber.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    My right to play multiplayer depends on me paying the PS+ subscription, which I assume is where the money comes from for maintenance and upkeep of the servers.
    Some of it likely does. I assume another part of it is in data sales or advertising.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    My car, even my new car, made in 2015, still has the space for me to install a single-din cassette player.
    But will the manufacturer of your new car support the car warranty if you put a third-party cassette player in and it fritzes the CANbus or something....?
    Or will they tell you it's your choice to use third party kit, it's your problem to cry about?
    Do they have the right terminals to connect an old device, or is it just a space?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I'm totally ok with not getting continued support from apple for a prior ios.
    But they're not and this is why you need to jailbreak it, mess around and DIY an older ROM on.
    Or just give up and go Andy!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    When a new USB standard comes in, that's not going to render all my current USB devices and ports dead, as if they've never existed.
    Only if they build full backwards compatibility in... and even now, some devices cannot use 3.0. They need 2.0.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    What I've suggested re the relationship between consumer, platform and devs is simply my imagination of how it should be in order to be fair to the consumer.
    Apple are NOT going to hold off progress just so a couple of poxy little apps from poxy little Mom's basement devs can still run on their OS. They have billions to make and millions in corporation tax to evade. They don't have time for the small stuff.
    Devs possibly don't want the time, expense and hassle maintaining and updating an app that quite possibly too few people bought and/or they have no interest in. Doing otherwise could be their downfall and I expect you'll find some kind of covering clause to such effect in the T&Cs that you accepted when you bought the damn thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    The whole 'third party' discussion is the problem: a shifting of blame away from who the consumer is supposed to be dealing with.
    It's nothing to do with Apple.
    Your contract of sale is either between you and the Dev directly, or you and the app store.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    If I buy a product from john lewis and they provide me with a warranty,
    Gotta stop you there, 'fore ya go any further, and ask you to detail me exactly what warranty or guarantee has been given you by either the app retailer or the app dev....... Tell me what THEY say, in writing, to what you are entitled in respect of this app......

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I go to john lewis when there's a problem. If they turn around and say 'well we can't fix the problem because the manufacturer has gone out of business', then it's john lewis's responsibility to make me whole.
    Depends on the T&Cs of the sale, how much time has passed, manufacturer vs retailer warranties offered, etc... sometimes even how you paid for it matters.
    In this case, your contract of sale is with the retailer, so forget Apple and forget the Devs - Check your AppStore T&Cs.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I'm not so extremely bored, not such a sado-masochist, that I would read every single TOS every time I buy or update a product. That would be, imo, quite frankly insane.
    Then you have no right to complain since you're not in full possession of key information, such as whether or not anyone is actually in breach of their responsibilities here...

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    It's nothing to do with Apple.
    Your contract of sale is either between you and the Dev directly, or you and the app store.
    This conversation is mushrooming so I'll keep it to the fact that this is what I object to. If I buy a product from you, I don't care to have the product stolen back by you. Otherwise, we're talking past each other and/or going round in circles here.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    This conversation is mushrooming so I'll keep it to the fact that this is what I object to. If I buy a product from you, I don't care to have the product stolen back by you. Otherwise, we're talking past each other and/or going round in circles here.
    I haven't stolen it.
    It just doesn't work on the new stuff and you have no choice over whether your stuff-maker upgrades you or not.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    I have precisely no access to the product nor any evidence the product ever existed, let alone that I owned it, nor do I have any legal way to regain access to it. In all the other examples you've used, I've had the option to hold back all the relevant tech or be satisfied with reduced functionality, and the choice was mine. Here, the only choice available to me was whether or not to upgrade my ios, which I didn't really have the choice to do anyway as I'd bought a new phone.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    I also hate to side with Apple but its fairly standard and for obvious reasons.

    Now you said you upgraded to ios10 but then said you had no choice as you'd bought a new phone?

    Scenario A
    You buy a win7 laptop, you buy a game to play from the MS store.
    You choose to update to win10 and that breaks compatibility with your game, you are screwed.

    Scenario B
    You buy a laptop with Win98 on it, you buy a game to play on it.
    You buy a new laptop with windows 10 and try to install said game which isn't compatible, you are screwed.

    Its not great, but within reason is the dev who needs to sort this out. They've had aaaaages to update to 64bit (isn't that the problem? I don't recall?)

    It sucks, but i don't see a great way around it.

    How old is the app out of interest? Ie release and purchase dates?

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_B View Post
    How old is the app out of interest? Ie release and purchase dates?
    There's a new app with the same name on the app store so I'm struggling to work out which search terms to give anything useful back. There's no record of me having purchased it on the app store app on my phone, it's not in purchased apps or anything. Like I said, the only way I could confirm that I wasn't going crazy and had imagined much of the last 6 years of running was going on chat (spent over an hour in total) with apple support, who confirmed I had bought it, and then told me about 12 times that I wasn't eligible for a refund, after I said 'fine, show me how to roll back my ios then please) about 11 times.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Apple wouldn't give you a refund as you hadn't bought it from them, and they aren't responsible for developing it. They only provide a facility for developers to market it. I expect the same is true for the Android store, or the Microsoft store.

    As I said earlier, the developers are responsible for supporting it to the apps end of life. Presumably they declared end of life when IOS was updated and it was too much hassle for them to re-code it for the new OS.

    Have you looked at the developers web site?
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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Presumably they declared end of life when IOS was updated and it was too much hassle for them to re-code it for the new OS.
    Or decided to release a new version that is compatible but requiring a new purchase, if the "new app with the same name" is also made by the same developers.

    I would also suggest that six years of a mobile app is actually a pretty good shelf-life, as some might only last a year or two at most.
    Last edited by Output; 26-07-2017 at 06:13 PM.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I bought 'pedometer', which before ios10 was a running / exercise app which did a pretty nifty job of tracking my runs via gps, controlling my music library, and my weight and heart rate etc.
    That is a pretty nifty app for £5.99. I guess I'm lucky in that my heart rate is controlled automatically, and I can control my weight by controlling the amount of food I eat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Output View Post
    Or decided to release a new version that is compatible but requiring a new purchase, if the "new app with the same name" is also made by the same developers.

    I would also suggest that six years of a mobile app is actually a pretty good shelf-life, as some might only last a year or two at most.
    True - but I suppose it amounts to the same thing - they declared the old version End-of-life. Now if that is the case, that could be construed as sharp practice - but then many application developers charge an upgrade fee when a major upgrade is released. AFAIK though, applications developed by (in this case Apple) tend to be upgraded FOC with each release of the OS - which are also free (or at least included in the purchase price of the device)
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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    I get the whole dynamic going on, I just object to it.

    You can get free meditation apps that can help you towards the goal of controlling your heart rate, though. I was kinda aware of my wording after I posted it but didn't choose to edit.

    The new pedometer app, as far as I can tell, has little to do with the original app, other than they both shared the function of counting steps. The new app doesn't sound like it does much other than literally just count your steps. I find it very difficult to believe they're made by the same devs.

    As such I have no idea who made the initial app, because, as I've said before, I can find no trace of them or the app on my phone or the internet.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    many application developers charge an upgrade fee when a major upgrade is released.
    That's reasonable, assuming that the major upgrade increases functionality. It would also be 'sharp practice' (that's a new term to me) if they charged the user to upgrade simply because they had to do some more coding to get the app up to scratch for the new iOS, or compatible with different screen sizes.

  16. #32
    HEXUS.Squirrel Output's Avatar
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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    As such I have no idea who made the initial app, because, as I've said before, I can find no trace of them or the app on my phone or the internet.
    I take it that past emails (assuming you still have them from that period) don't shed any light on the subject then? (I've never had an Apple device, so wouldn't know what the App Store email receipts may look like.)

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