App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

In a pretty ratty mood today otherwise I wouldn't be quibbling over £5.99, but this really irked me.

I bought 'pedometer', which before ios10 was a running / exercise app which did a pretty nifty job of tracking my runs via gps, controlling my music library, and my weight and heart rate etc.

When I updated to ios10, it disappeared. I spoke to apple support and they said it's up to the devs.

Now I know it's a platform, and maybe this is all covered by the TOS (I don't care). But I'm not particularly concerned with the legal standpoint, I'm far from convinced that these things are geared towards protecting the average consumer. I'm concerned with the morality of selling someone a product and then taking it away from them.

It's like buying a laptop and a mouse from apple, updating the software on the laptop, and then them taking the mouse away, not even giving me an option to roll back the update.

Support claimed it was the devs fault for not updating their app for ios 10, but I bought the product from Apple, not the devs. Not only am I £5.99 out, but there doesn't seem to be any app I can find that does a similar job while not being overcomplicated. How can this be a fair way of doing business, where every time you 'buy' an app, you risk losing that app if you update your ios, which apple are pushing you to do roughly once a day?

If anyone has any advice as to how to roll back your ios on an iphone, I'd be grateful.

I don't have an answer on the subject of rolling back iOS, but other than that it sounds like the general risk you have on any platform (whether desktop or mobile) - relying on the application developers to release updated versions if there are any changes needed to work with updated Operating Systems.

Not that I don't sympathise with your annoyance, just thought I'd point out that it could just as easily happen on any other platform too.

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Originally Posted by Output

I don't have an answer on the subject of rolling back iOS, but other than that it sounds like the general risk you have on any platform (whether desktop or mobile) - relying on the application developers to release updated versions if there are any changes needed to work with updated Operating Systems.

Not that I don't sympathise with your annoyance, just thought I'd point out that it could just as easily happen on any other platform too.

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If the user has the option to revert to the previous version, then they have the choice between any features, benefits and security implications of upgrading, versus the security risk but continued support for some feature or product they highly value, or perhaps need.

This is why I kept some of my PCs on WinXP - because several bits of hardware and one very important (to me) application wouldn't work with or run under Win7. Security was dealt with by backup procedures and airgapping, though the latter isn't really possible with mobile devices.

It's also a significant part of why Win10 isn't going on my machines, because of the transfer of control of the configuration of my computers to the whim and good will of MS, because of forced, mandatory updates. Ain't 'appening.

It seems to be the way of things to come that companies think they can do what they like to our hardware, and if we don't like it, tough. Vive la Resistance. ;)

The Win 10 push has been causing me to grind my teeth recently, especially with MS actively blocking windows updates for anything less than 10 on Kaby Lake or Ryzen. I could just about buy it for Win 7 which is out of mainstream support, but they're also doing it for 8.1 which is still supposed to be in mainstream support.

On the iOS front, I sympathise; it happens on other platforms too (Nokia Drive being pulled from Windows Phone being a favourite bugbear of mine), but fruit-based devices do seem particularly prone to it.

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Originally Posted by nichomach

but fruit-based devices do seem particularly prone to it.

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Not noticed it on the Raspberry Pi. I don't think it was an issue with Apricot computers either (or the Tangerine)...

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Originally Posted by Saracen

<snipped>

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I'm in agreement with you on the subject of avoiding Win10, and certainly understand the reasons for staying away in other circumstances too, but if the user chooses to do an upgrade then it is of course one of the risks that they take on in the process.

I understand it may be harder to avoid for mobile devices (in the cases that updates are actually released for them anyway), but that would be another risk that comes in choosing said device on said platform in the first place.

All in all, whichever way you go, it all boils down to whether a person feels that the risks are worth it or not, a decision which can and will vary from person to person.

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Originally Posted by Output

I'm in agreement with you on the subject of avoiding Win10, and certainly understand the reasons for staying away in other circumstances too, but if the user chooses to do an upgrade then it is of course one of the risks that they take on in the process.

I understand it may be harder to avoid for mobile devices (in the cases that updates are actually released for them anyway), but that would be another risk that comes in choosing said device on said platform in the first place.

All in all, whichever way you go, it all boils down to whether a person feels that the risks are worth it or not, a decision which can and will vary from person to person.

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Careful - that voice of reason will set you up as the guest at a lynching party! :)

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Originally Posted by peterb

Careful - that voice of reason will set you up as the guest at a lynching party! :)

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Not to worry, if it comes to that I'll take inspiration from Bugs Bunny to trick my way out of it. :p

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Originally Posted by Output

Not to worry, if it comes to that I'll take inspiration from Bugs Bunny to trick my way out of it. :p

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Here I thought you were a cunning Squirrel who would disappear up a tree!! :p

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Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH

Here I thought you were a cunning Squirrel who would disappear up a tree!! :p

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I would have to escape first before I could disappear up the tree though, and taking inspiration from Bugs Bunny seems very cunning to me. :p


(Apologies for causing a derailing of the thread, wazzickle.)

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Originally Posted by Output

I would have to escape first before I could disappear up the tree though. :p

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True,but Elmer Fudd is not the brightest spark in the world,so maybe this would do:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e2f016ef48.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e2f016ef48.jpg

Sadly Moose don't have the wit or physical maneuverability,so hunting parties usually don't end well for them!! :p

Yeah I got pretty miffed when a game disappeared from the App store. Apparently I should have created a local backup of it to restore from...

Does seem like rather a grey area, digital goods wave a lot of standard rights on purchase. I can't remember which game it was, but something previously paid for (and ad free) was released for free to much fanfare, and full of adverts with an in-app purchase to remove them... (Android).

Sounds like normal, to me. You get the same with PC apps.
Devs make something and it's their stuff, which they have to make work on Platform A v1.1... it's their choice if they continue to support it and make it work on Platform A v2.1. Nothing to do with the makers of Platform A.

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Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

Sounds like normal, to me. You get the same with PC apps.
Devs make something and it's their stuff, which they have to make work on Platform A v1.1... it's their choice if they continue to support it and make it work on Platform A v2.1. Nothing to do with the makers of Platform A.

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Absolutely it's do with the makers of Platform A, because the business is not between the customer and the dev, it's between the customer and the platform.

With windows they go to some effort to provide compatibility options when they change the platform. With apple, they remove all mention of the app.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

Absolutely it's do with the makers of Platform A, because the business is not between the customer and the dev, it's between the customer and the platform.

With windows they go to some effort to provide compatibility options when they change the platform. With apple, they remove all mention of the app.

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So basically you are saying that Apple/Google/Microsoft should not release any updates to their operating systems until they have verified that all applications sold through their stores have been updated or demonstrated to work with it?

I think they would claim that they are offering the shop front for other developers, they are not providing the application themselves. This is really no different from (say) Microsoft updating Windows, but the makers of a peripheral device choosing not to update the drivers so the device no longer works.

Your complaint should be with the developer.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

Absolutely it's do with the makers of Platform A, because the business is not between the customer and the dev, it's between the customer and the platform.

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You buy an iPhone, you buy the use of IOS. IOS still belongs to Apple, so they can do what they like with it. They are not under any obligation to you or to anyone else to make their platform support someone else's stuff. Changes are at their discretion and it's up to that someone else to make their stuff work on the intended platform, just as it's up to Persil to make their liquid work in your Hotpoint washing machine, or MSI to make their 1080Ti fit in your PCI-E slot, etc...

Much as I *really* hate to defend Apple - What you do with your iPhone and any third party apps you choose to put on it is your choice and your problem... Otherwise you'd be suing Mercedes because a Ford crashed into your car.

If Apple update their software, tough. If you wanted a device to roll back or easily fiddle with without necessarily voiding the warranty, you should'a bought Android. I'm sure it's a serious inconvenience and all, but it's all in the small print and Apple are pretty well known for this sort of guff.

I get that it's positioned itself as a platform, but that doesn't mean it's shorn of a duty of care to its customers. That specifically, in this case, means providing me with the means to access this app. If that means the option to roll back the ios, meaning my carplay features no longer work, that should be on me, but it should be up to me.

If I had physically bought the item, I would still own that item and have the choice to use it in an older system, or simply use it as an expensive paperweight. In this case, they have removed all trace of me ever having owned or paid for this app, and other than possibly jailbreaking my phone, or finding out nifty ways to roll back the ios (clearly not that simple if no-one here has been able to point me in any direction), I am left out of pocket with no recourse and nothing to show for my money.

I would argue that the whole methodology is crooked, that any app designed for ios X necessarily needs to be compatible with ios > X, whether that be on the heads of the devs to conform to future compatibility issues as proscribed by the platform, the platform to ensure that no features get written out, nor do any new features render previous features impotent, or on both their heads. Not like the app market isn't overly flush with money.

Anyway. It really doesn't matter much, just another way us fools who don't care to read the TOS get parted from our money by people who aren't quite rich enough yet.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

I get that it's positioned itself as a platform, but that doesn't mean it's shorn of a duty of care to its customers.

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Which it fulfils to the letter of the law.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

That specifically, in this case, means providing me with the means to access this app.

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No, it really doesn't...
If it did, your car stereo would still come with an 8-track player.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

If that means the option to roll back the ios, meaning my carplay features no longer work, that should be on me, but it should be up to me.

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It is still up to you and you can still do that... you just get NO support from Apple if you do it.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

If I had physically bought the item, I would still own that item and have the choice to use it in an older system, or simply use it as an expensive paperweight.

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So are you going to now sue all those game companies who went out of business, because they no longer support the game server you used to play on and left you with a good-for-nothing game that cannot connect and just sits on your system being deadware?
What about suing Mercedes when you can no longer buy diesel for your 3.4L C-Class?

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

I am left out of pocket with no recourse and nothing to show for my money.

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How is this any different from all the other possibilities in business?

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

I would argue that the whole methodology is crooked, that any app designed for ios X necessarily needs to be compatible with...

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You're gonna have fun with all your USB devices when the new standard comes in...

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

whether that be on the heads of the devs to conform to future compatibility issues

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It's up to them whether they do or not... but it's not on them any more than it's your responsibility to learn the vernacular of the young folk in order to communicate effectively.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

the platform to ensure that no features get written out, nor do any new features render previous features impotent

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What any third party does is not their problem any more than it's a car manufacturer's problem if you decide to drive it like a wazzock...

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

Anyway. It really doesn't matter much, just another way us fools who don't care to read the TOS get parted from our money by people who aren't quite rich enough yet.

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Well if you insist on being ignorant... this is what you get. Sorry. Thanks for choosing AT&T. Goodbye.

I suppose the developers have a duty to support the product for its lifetime. ("lifetime guarantee")

But if its lifetime is now up, they no longer have a duty to support it. And I guess they declared end of life when the underlying OS was updated which is why its no longer shown in the app store.

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Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

Which it fulfils to the letter of the law.


No, it really doesn't...
If it did, your car stereo would still come with an 8-track player.


It is still up to you and you can still do that... you just get NO support from Apple if you do it.


So are you going to now sue all those game companies who went out of business, because they no longer support the game server you used to play on and left you with a good-for-nothing game that cannot connect and just sits on your system being deadware?
What about suing Mercedes when you can no longer buy diesel for your 3.4L C-Class?


How is this any different from all the other possibilities in business?


You're gonna have fun with all your USB devices when the new standard comes in...


It's up to them whether they do or not... but it's not on them any more than it's your responsibility to learn the vernacular of the young folk in order to communicate effectively.


What any third party does is not their problem any more than it's a car manufacturer's problem if you decide to drive it like a wazzock...


Well if you insist on being ignorant... this is what you get. Sorry. Thanks for choosing AT&T. Goodbye.

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'Wazzock' is actually the root of my online screenname.

You make some good points, but you're still ignoring the fact that when you buy something you buy a thing, no matter whether support is offered for that product. When I play the last of us online, what I've paid for is the game, and as such, as long as I still have my PS4, I expect to be able to play that game, single-player, for as long as I can get power and have a tv. My right to play multiplayer depends on me paying the PS+ subscription, which I assume is where the money comes from for maintenance and upkeep of the servers.

My car, even my new car, made in 2015, still has the space for me to install a single-din cassette player.

I'm totally ok with not getting continued support from apple for a prior ios.

When a new USB standard comes in, that's not going to render all my current USB devices and ports dead, as if they've never existed. That's what's happened here.

What I've suggested re the relationship between consumer, platform and devs is simply my imagination of how it should be in order to be fair to the consumer. I don't perceive the current way of doing things as fair to the consumer. The whole 'third party' discussion is the problem: a shifting of blame away from who the consumer is supposed to be dealing with. If I buy a product from john lewis and they provide me with a warranty, I go to john lewis when there's a problem. If they turn around and say 'well we can't fix the problem because the manufacturer has gone out of business', then it's john lewis's responsibility to make me whole. I deal with them, I gave them money, I'm not interested in their business, and for any company to defer blame to someone else seems to me endemic to our current corporate, consumerist culture where you're supposed to feel grateful for the opportunity to waste the companies' time buying their products.

Am I wilfully ignorant by not reading the TOS? Yes. I'm not so extremely bored, not such a sado-masochist, that I would read every single TOS every time I buy or update a product. That would be, imo, quite frankly insane.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

'Wazzock' is actually the root of my online screenname.

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I figured ;)

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

You make some good points, but you're still ignoring the fact that when you buy something you buy a thing, no matter whether support is offered for that product.

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Not always.
When you 'buy' software, you're usually buying just the licence to use that software in accordance with all the terms and conditions... You still have the licence to use Random-SoftWare V2.1... but 2.1 just won't work on newer stuff. Same as you still have every right to play your audiocassette, but that devices don't even have CDs any more, being all MP3 streaming DAB radio wotsit things...

Actually - Better example - Yes, you can use your VGA monitor. You have every right.
But graphics cards only have DisplayPort slots, now.
Would you complain to Nvidia/AMD?

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

When I play the last of us online, what I've paid for is the game, and as such, as long as I still have my PS4, I expect to be able to play that game, single-player, for as long as I can get power and have a tv.

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BANG - Some suicide bomber blows up the company that made it, along with all their game servers. The people don't exist, the servers don't exist, the company doesn't exist, the game itself doesn't exist.
Now what?
The installation itself still exists, but there's nothing for it to connect to and no-one to hold accountable... including the bomber.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

My right to play multiplayer depends on me paying the PS+ subscription, which I assume is where the money comes from for maintenance and upkeep of the servers.

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Some of it likely does. I assume another part of it is in data sales or advertising.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

My car, even my new car, made in 2015, still has the space for me to install a single-din cassette player.

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But will the manufacturer of your new car support the car warranty if you put a third-party cassette player in and it fritzes the CANbus or something....?
Or will they tell you it's your choice to use third party kit, it's your problem to cry about?
Do they have the right terminals to connect an old device, or is it just a space?

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

I'm totally ok with not getting continued support from apple for a prior ios.

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But they're not and this is why you need to jailbreak it, mess around and DIY an older ROM on.
Or just give up and go Andy!! :p

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

When a new USB standard comes in, that's not going to render all my current USB devices and ports dead, as if they've never existed.

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Only if they build full backwards compatibility in... and even now, some devices cannot use 3.0. They need 2.0.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

What I've suggested re the relationship between consumer, platform and devs is simply my imagination of how it should be in order to be fair to the consumer.

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Apple are NOT going to hold off progress just so a couple of poxy little apps from poxy little Mom's basement devs can still run on their OS. They have billions to make and millions in corporation tax to evade. They don't have time for the small stuff.
Devs possibly don't want the time, expense and hassle maintaining and updating an app that quite possibly too few people bought and/or they have no interest in. Doing otherwise could be their downfall and I expect you'll find some kind of covering clause to such effect in the T&Cs that you accepted when you bought the damn thing.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

The whole 'third party' discussion is the problem: a shifting of blame away from who the consumer is supposed to be dealing with.

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It's nothing to do with Apple.
Your contract of sale is either between you and the Dev directly, or you and the app store.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

If I buy a product from john lewis and they provide me with a warranty,

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Gotta stop you there, 'fore ya go any further, and ask you to detail me exactly what warranty or guarantee has been given you by either the app retailer or the app dev....... Tell me what THEY say, in writing, to what you are entitled in respect of this app......

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

I go to john lewis when there's a problem. If they turn around and say 'well we can't fix the problem because the manufacturer has gone out of business', then it's john lewis's responsibility to make me whole.

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Depends on the T&Cs of the sale, how much time has passed, manufacturer vs retailer warranties offered, etc... sometimes even how you paid for it matters.
In this case, your contract of sale is with the retailer, so forget Apple and forget the Devs - Check your AppStore T&Cs.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

I'm not so extremely bored, not such a sado-masochist, that I would read every single TOS every time I buy or update a product. That would be, imo, quite frankly insane.

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Then you have no right to complain since you're not in full possession of key information, such as whether or not anyone is actually in breach of their responsibilities here...

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Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

It's nothing to do with Apple.
Your contract of sale is either between you and the Dev directly, or you and the app store.

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This conversation is mushrooming so I'll keep it to the fact that this is what I object to. If I buy a product from you, I don't care to have the product stolen back by you. Otherwise, we're talking past each other and/or going round in circles here.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

This conversation is mushrooming so I'll keep it to the fact that this is what I object to. If I buy a product from you, I don't care to have the product stolen back by you. Otherwise, we're talking past each other and/or going round in circles here.

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I haven't stolen it.
It just doesn't work on the new stuff and you have no choice over whether your stuff-maker upgrades you or not.

I have precisely no access to the product nor any evidence the product ever existed, let alone that I owned it, nor do I have any legal way to regain access to it. In all the other examples you've used, I've had the option to hold back all the relevant tech or be satisfied with reduced functionality, and the choice was mine. Here, the only choice available to me was whether or not to upgrade my ios, which I didn't really have the choice to do anyway as I'd bought a new phone.

I also hate to side with Apple but its fairly standard and for obvious reasons.

Now you said you upgraded to ios10 but then said you had no choice as you'd bought a new phone?

Scenario A
You buy a win7 laptop, you buy a game to play from the MS store.
You choose to update to win10 and that breaks compatibility with your game, you are screwed.

Scenario B
You buy a laptop with Win98 on it, you buy a game to play on it.
You buy a new laptop with windows 10 and try to install said game which isn't compatible, you are screwed.

Its not great, but within reason is the dev who needs to sort this out. They've had aaaaages to update to 64bit (isn't that the problem? I don't recall?)

It sucks, but i don't see a great way around it.

How old is the app out of interest? Ie release and purchase dates?

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Originally Posted by Rob_B

How old is the app out of interest? Ie release and purchase dates?

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There's a new app with the same name on the app store so I'm struggling to work out which search terms to give anything useful back. There's no record of me having purchased it on the app store app on my phone, it's not in purchased apps or anything. Like I said, the only way I could confirm that I wasn't going crazy and had imagined much of the last 6 years of running was going on chat (spent over an hour in total) with apple support, who confirmed I had bought it, and then told me about 12 times that I wasn't eligible for a refund, after I said 'fine, show me how to roll back my ios then please) about 11 times.

Apple wouldn't give you a refund as you hadn't bought it from them, and they aren't responsible for developing it. They only provide a facility for developers to market it. I expect the same is true for the Android store, or the Microsoft store.

As I said earlier, the developers are responsible for supporting it to the apps end of life. Presumably they declared end of life when IOS was updated and it was too much hassle for them to re-code it for the new OS.

Have you looked at the developers web site?

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Originally Posted by peterb

Presumably they declared end of life when IOS was updated and it was too much hassle for them to re-code it for the new OS.

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Or decided to release a new version that is compatible but requiring a new purchase, if the "new app with the same name" is also made by the same developers.

I would also suggest that six years of a mobile app is actually a pretty good shelf-life, as some might only last a year or two at most.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

I bought 'pedometer', which before ios10 was a running / exercise app which did a pretty nifty job of tracking my runs via gps, controlling my music library, and my weight and heart rate etc.

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That is a pretty nifty app for £5.99. I guess I'm lucky in that my heart rate is controlled automatically, and I can control my weight by controlling the amount of food I eat!

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Originally Posted by Output

Or decided to release a new version that is compatible but requiring a new purchase, if the "new app with the same name" is also made by the same developers.

I would also suggest that six years of a mobile app is actually a pretty good shelf-life, as some might only last a year or two at most.

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True - but I suppose it amounts to the same thing - they declared the old version End-of-life. Now if that is the case, that could be construed as sharp practice - but then many application developers charge an upgrade fee when a major upgrade is released. AFAIK though, applications developed by (in this case Apple) tend to be upgraded FOC with each release of the OS - which are also free (or at least included in the purchase price of the device)

I get the whole dynamic going on, I just object to it.

You can get free meditation apps that can help you towards the goal of controlling your heart rate, though. I was kinda aware of my wording after I posted it but didn't choose to edit.

The new pedometer app, as far as I can tell, has little to do with the original app, other than they both shared the function of counting steps. The new app doesn't sound like it does much other than literally just count your steps. I find it very difficult to believe they're made by the same devs.

As such I have no idea who made the initial app, because, as I've said before, I can find no trace of them or the app on my phone or the internet.

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Originally Posted by peterb

many application developers charge an upgrade fee when a major upgrade is released.

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That's reasonable, assuming that the major upgrade increases functionality. It would also be 'sharp practice' (that's a new term to me) if they charged the user to upgrade simply because they had to do some more coding to get the app up to scratch for the new iOS, or compatible with different screen sizes.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

As such I have no idea who made the initial app, because, as I've said before, I can find no trace of them or the app on my phone or the internet.

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I take it that past emails (assuming you still have them from that period) don't shed any light on the subject then? (I've never had an Apple device, so wouldn't know what the App Store email receipts may look like.)

Aah, I suppose that's an obvious place to look. December 2013, 'Pedometer FREE GPS +, Full Pack £2.99' developed by Arawella Corp. Seemingly otherwise trading under Viaden, both seem to have folded - last app on app store is 2013.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

Here, the only choice available to me was whether or not to upgrade my ios, which I didn't really have the choice to do anyway as I'd bought a new phone.

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So you bought the phone, you made changes and you are the reason you now cannot access your app... :p

I bought exactly the same phone as I had before - an iphone 5c - because my last one stopped working. The choice I made was between not having a phone and having a new phone.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

I bought exactly the same phone as I had before - an iphone 5c - because my last one stopped working. The choice I made was between not having a phone and having a new phone.

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Then if it comes with a new OS, you either get that or find another phone that does what you want.

If either the Dev or AppStore decide they're not going to continue with the app, then that's just tough. Same as if Steam removes from your library a game they no longer support.
Might as well complain to Samsung that your SkyBox isn't showing any new episodes of Firefly on the TV you bought from Currys...

AIUI it's apple who have removed the app download since it doesn't support ios 10 - and/or won't show it in app store to ios 10 devices.

Apple's change in OS killed it, not the developers. Apple's appstore jail means you can't download an old binary to try it...

Now as for the devs updating it - which may be potentially a lot of work and money - your £5.99 pays for the app as it was at the time,
it doesn't necessarily pay an ongoing wage for the devs to update every time apple makes a change.

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Originally Posted by mikerr

Apple's change in OS killed it, not the developers.

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Sounds more like 'and/or' it was removed because the Devs went out of business 4 years ago:

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

December 2013, 'Pedometer FREE GPS +, Full Pack £2.99' developed by Arawella Corp. Seemingly otherwise trading under Viaden, both seem to have folded - last app on app store is 2013.

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£2.99. Just under a pint of beer!

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Originally Posted by peterb

£2.99. Just under a pint of beer!

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The amount doesn't really matter that much. I'll set fire to a £100 note, I really don't care about money, it's the principle.

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Originally Posted by wazzickle

The amount doesn't really matter that much. I'll set fire to a £100 note, I really don't care about money

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Give it here, then, let me put it to good use...

TBH, it seems fair to me.
You want Apple to hold off implementing a new OS, so that you can continue to enjoy a very old app made by someone who no longer exists, at the inconvenience of (I'm guessing) millions of customers, just so you can get the most out of your £3... rather than you just jailbreaking your phone in order to stay in the Dark Ages...? :p

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Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

rather than you just jailbreaking your phone in order to stay in the Dark Ages...? :p

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Well, I wouldn't advocate jaibreaking the phone as that may cause more problems. Quite a few internet banking apps (for example) won't run on a jail broken phone because security has been compromised.

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Originally Posted by peterb

Well, I wouldn't advocate jaibreaking the phone as that may cause more problems. Quite a few internet banking apps (for example) won't run on a jail broken phone because security has been compromised.

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I guess it's just plain over, then... Unless OP can find a second hand iPhone with the required OS and thus regain access to this app of such great principle...?

There are some things where the principles are the same but the same rules do not seem to apply.
I have two examples of this:
1. if you purchase a application or game on a disc you can attempt to install it on a modern OS and it may work and may fail but at least you can try. I can understand from both views apple do not want their servers filled up with dead apps that may have security or other bugs and as far as i am aware apple is pushing all apps to be 64bit and if the apps are not updated they are removed from the store.

2. If you fill up your car with fuel it is up to you when you use it. Most 3g/4g pay as you go tariffs have a time limit to use them which makes the idea I had in the past of having a dongle with some data on it for emergency purposes not doable. If i have paid for say 1gb of data shouldn't it be up to me when I use it ? Just because the technology exists to remove it doesn't mean it should be used. I see it no different from someone coming along and emptying my fuel tank because I haven't used it within say 30days and that would be called theft but the same doesn't seem to apply to digital content.

I enjoy technology but feel that it can be easily abused. it may seem old fashioned to buy a boxset but once again It is up to me when I watch it and it isn't going to be taken away. If for example you have a subscription to an online film /tv website you could be half way through a tv show and the license could expire so you cannot finish watching it. Somepeople may feel that the amount of content you get for the subscription fee is worth the risk of losing some content but i would rather purchase specific content and watch it in full.

We seem to be living in a world where everything is rented and not owned. The majority of adverts for new cars are leasing agreements for say 3 years and at the end you give the car back and once again just like subscription software the car companies like this as they obtain a constant stream of income. The benefit for the end user is that just like they can have a new shiny phone every 2 years they have a new shiny car as well.

I had a discussion at work recently about how we are stuck on an older version of database software due to the company switching to subscription only. I made a joke that if we did switch and missed a payment then the company database would be held to ransom but legally as the license terms would of been agreed but it still would stop the company from being able to operate as we couldn't purchase, order, invoice etc.

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Originally Posted by lodore

If i have paid for say 1gb of data shouldn't it be up to me when I use it ?

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In theory, yes.
Aas it was explained to me in basic terms - This also means you could have stacks of data stored up and some people will suddenly try to use it, putting an unacceptable strain on the network. As is, if there are problems, the first thing they cut is data, followed by texts, to leave the network open for emergency calls and things.

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Originally Posted by lodore

it may seem old fashioned to buy a boxset but once again It is up to me when I watch it and it isn't going to be taken away.

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Again probably something to do with keeping track of all this info for all the customers, not wanting to have all that hanging over their head for years while people forget they even have all this stuff queued up to watch... and the same reason why your Steam/Origin/Uplay/GoG/Whatever cloud storage game save data sync thingy is limied on size.
I certainly have days worth of films and a few weeks of TV shows I've bought but not yet watched and likely won't ever get around to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lodore

We seem to be living in a world where everything is rented and not owned.

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It does irk that you'd spend all that money and have nothing to show for it at the end of the day, or if things suddenly went wrong... But property is so expensive anyway, many have no option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lodore

The majority of adverts for new cars are leasing agreements for say 3 years and at the end you give the car back

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Probably costing more than buying the car outright, else they'd not run the scheme in the first place, even if they artificially inflate the purchase price to trick you out of it. Same for purchasing at the end of the scheme - I'd rather keep a car I actually liked, TBH... just like my phone.

I'm not a fan of any of the above, although the data restriction stuff is at least justifiable. The car/phone way of doing it is pure moneymaking.

Apple.
Apple.
Apple.
Just do not buy their stuff if you want control of your device.

Iodore is right, Apple has asked all developers to update apps to 64bit, can't remember what the deadline was but I can imagine come 2018 a lot of older apps will not work with future iOS updates.