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Thread: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

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    App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    In a pretty ratty mood today otherwise I wouldn't be quibbling over £5.99, but this really irked me.

    I bought 'pedometer', which before ios10 was a running / exercise app which did a pretty nifty job of tracking my runs via gps, controlling my music library, and my weight and heart rate etc.

    When I updated to ios10, it disappeared. I spoke to apple support and they said it's up to the devs.

    Now I know it's a platform, and maybe this is all covered by the TOS (I don't care). But I'm not particularly concerned with the legal standpoint, I'm far from convinced that these things are geared towards protecting the average consumer. I'm concerned with the morality of selling someone a product and then taking it away from them.

    It's like buying a laptop and a mouse from apple, updating the software on the laptop, and then them taking the mouse away, not even giving me an option to roll back the update.

    Support claimed it was the devs fault for not updating their app for ios 10, but I bought the product from Apple, not the devs. Not only am I £5.99 out, but there doesn't seem to be any app I can find that does a similar job while not being overcomplicated. How can this be a fair way of doing business, where every time you 'buy' an app, you risk losing that app if you update your ios, which apple are pushing you to do roughly once a day?

    If anyone has any advice as to how to roll back your ios on an iphone, I'd be grateful.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    I don't have an answer on the subject of rolling back iOS, but other than that it sounds like the general risk you have on any platform (whether desktop or mobile) - relying on the application developers to release updated versions if there are any changes needed to work with updated Operating Systems.

    Not that I don't sympathise with your annoyance, just thought I'd point out that it could just as easily happen on any other platform too.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Output View Post
    I don't have an answer on the subject of rolling back iOS, but other than that it sounds like the general risk you have on any platform (whether desktop or mobile) - relying on the application developers to release updated versions if there are any changes needed to work with updated Operating Systems.

    Not that I don't sympathise with your annoyance, just thought I'd point out that it could just as easily happen on any other platform too.
    If the user has the option to revert to the previous version, then they have the choice between any features, benefits and security implications of upgrading, versus the security risk but continued support for some feature or product they highly value, or perhaps need.

    This is why I kept some of my PCs on WinXP - because several bits of hardware and one very important (to me) application wouldn't work with or run under Win7. Security was dealt with by backup procedures and airgapping, though the latter isn't really possible with mobile devices.

    It's also a significant part of why Win10 isn't going on my machines, because of the transfer of control of the configuration of my computers to the whim and good will of MS, because of forced, mandatory updates. Ain't 'appening.

    It seems to be the way of things to come that companies think they can do what they like to our hardware, and if we don't like it, tough. Vive la Resistance.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    The Win 10 push has been causing me to grind my teeth recently, especially with MS actively blocking windows updates for anything less than 10 on Kaby Lake or Ryzen. I could just about buy it for Win 7 which is out of mainstream support, but they're also doing it for 8.1 which is still supposed to be in mainstream support.

    On the iOS front, I sympathise; it happens on other platforms too (Nokia Drive being pulled from Windows Phone being a favourite bugbear of mine), but fruit-based devices do seem particularly prone to it.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach View Post
    but fruit-based devices do seem particularly prone to it.
    Not noticed it on the Raspberry Pi. I don't think it was an issue with Apricot computers either (or the Tangerine)...
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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    <snipped>
    I'm in agreement with you on the subject of avoiding Win10, and certainly understand the reasons for staying away in other circumstances too, but if the user chooses to do an upgrade then it is of course one of the risks that they take on in the process.

    I understand it may be harder to avoid for mobile devices (in the cases that updates are actually released for them anyway), but that would be another risk that comes in choosing said device on said platform in the first place.

    All in all, whichever way you go, it all boils down to whether a person feels that the risks are worth it or not, a decision which can and will vary from person to person.
    Last edited by Output; 25-07-2017 at 01:16 PM.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Output View Post
    I'm in agreement with you on the subject of avoiding Win10, and certainly understand the reasons for staying away in other circumstances too, but if the user chooses to do an upgrade then it is of course one of the risks that they take on in the process.

    I understand it may be harder to avoid for mobile devices (in the cases that updates are actually released for them anyway), but that would be another risk that comes in choosing said device on said platform in the first place.

    All in all, whichever way you go, it all boils down to whether a person feels that the risks are worth it or not, a decision which can and will vary from person to person.
    Careful - that voice of reason will set you up as the guest at a lynching party!
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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Careful - that voice of reason will set you up as the guest at a lynching party!
    Not to worry, if it comes to that I'll take inspiration from Bugs Bunny to trick my way out of it.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Output View Post
    Not to worry, if it comes to that I'll take inspiration from Bugs Bunny to trick my way out of it.
    Here I thought you were a cunning Squirrel who would disappear up a tree!!


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Here I thought you were a cunning Squirrel who would disappear up a tree!!
    I would have to escape first before I could disappear up the tree though, and taking inspiration from Bugs Bunny seems very cunning to me.


    (Apologies for causing a derailing of the thread, wazzickle.)

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Output View Post
    I would have to escape first before I could disappear up the tree though.
    True,but Elmer Fudd is not the brightest spark in the world,so maybe this would do:

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e2f016ef48.jpg



    Sadly Moose don't have the wit or physical maneuverability,so hunting parties usually don't end well for them!!


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Yeah I got pretty miffed when a game disappeared from the App store. Apparently I should have created a local backup of it to restore from...

    Does seem like rather a grey area, digital goods wave a lot of standard rights on purchase. I can't remember which game it was, but something previously paid for (and ad free) was released for free to much fanfare, and full of adverts with an in-app purchase to remove them... (Android).

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Sounds like normal, to me. You get the same with PC apps.
    Devs make something and it's their stuff, which they have to make work on Platform A v1.1... it's their choice if they continue to support it and make it work on Platform A v2.1. Nothing to do with the makers of Platform A.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Sounds like normal, to me. You get the same with PC apps.
    Devs make something and it's their stuff, which they have to make work on Platform A v1.1... it's their choice if they continue to support it and make it work on Platform A v2.1. Nothing to do with the makers of Platform A.
    Absolutely it's do with the makers of Platform A, because the business is not between the customer and the dev, it's between the customer and the platform.

    With windows they go to some effort to provide compatibility options when they change the platform. With apple, they remove all mention of the app.

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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Absolutely it's do with the makers of Platform A, because the business is not between the customer and the dev, it's between the customer and the platform.

    With windows they go to some effort to provide compatibility options when they change the platform. With apple, they remove all mention of the app.
    So basically you are saying that Apple/Google/Microsoft should not release any updates to their operating systems until they have verified that all applications sold through their stores have been updated or demonstrated to work with it?

    I think they would claim that they are offering the shop front for other developers, they are not providing the application themselves. This is really no different from (say) Microsoft updating Windows, but the makers of a peripheral device choosing not to update the drivers so the device no longer works.

    Your complaint should be with the developer.
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    Re: App Store - how is this a legitimate way of doing business?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Absolutely it's do with the makers of Platform A, because the business is not between the customer and the dev, it's between the customer and the platform.
    You buy an iPhone, you buy the use of IOS. IOS still belongs to Apple, so they can do what they like with it. They are not under any obligation to you or to anyone else to make their platform support someone else's stuff. Changes are at their discretion and it's up to that someone else to make their stuff work on the intended platform, just as it's up to Persil to make their liquid work in your Hotpoint washing machine, or MSI to make their 1080Ti fit in your PCI-E slot, etc...

    Much as I *really* hate to defend Apple - What you do with your iPhone and any third party apps you choose to put on it is your choice and your problem... Otherwise you'd be suing Mercedes because a Ford crashed into your car.

    If Apple update their software, tough. If you wanted a device to roll back or easily fiddle with without necessarily voiding the warranty, you should'a bought Android. I'm sure it's a serious inconvenience and all, but it's all in the small print and Apple are pretty well known for this sort of guff.

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