For OOPL developers

[yamangman]

I was wondering what your views were on C++ and Java in developing apps. How would you rate and compare the two? What is good about one and bad about the other? Can you think of an advantage of one over the other in developing certain applications? Basically how would you review and compare the two?

[DaBeeeenster]

Simple version:

C++: Painful
Java: Not painful

Slightly expanded version:

Java has built in memory management. C++ doesn't. Java is totally portable. C++ isn't.

[yamangman]

Is there a rather more expanded version than your slightly expaned version?

[DaBeeeenster]

Your occupation is set to "Ex Structured Systems Analyst. 3 years experience UML, Visual Paradigm, ERWin, BPWin, secondary experience C, C++, Java, VB and customized MS & Open Office solutions. Mail yaman_an@hotmail.com for employment interest " and you want to know more?!?!?!

[yamangman]

I'm interested in what people think of the two from a development perspective. You stated what you thought but it, of course, was a little blithe, I was wondering if you had anything else to say about it, don't know what, anything really. Specific problems you've faced when developing perhaps, when you wished you had the constructor control of Java. I think any further comments you had would lean to Java however . I too am a little stuck for comments I would make favoring C++ over Java. What further reasons do you have for favoring Java perhaps?

Edit

Oh and that description is out of date, I have a job now, and I no longer have that email

[DaBeeeenster]

Java is simply a higher level language with a richer set of high quality API's. I cant see any reason (other than speed) for writing in C++ in this day in age.

[TiG]

I'd say you are probably making the wrong judgements, Compare C# to Java is more fair now, C++ is certainly an older and more widely used technology than Java, But there is without doubt definite specialisations in C++.

I personally find C++ horrible to code in, but then i did do java at Uni for 3+ years. Graphics used to be a pain in the backside in Java, but even this has been smoothed out in recent years.

but then i think .net is a superb if slightly obese language and in a year or so will really have matured well and be very popular.

TiG

[yamangman]

As you say, Java has built-in memory management. Wouldn't you also consider this a downside for Java?

[javalord]

As you say, Java has built-in memory management. Wouldn't you also consider this a downside for Java?

Given that the modern PC is in the GHZ+ , and that most Java applications that ive come across are not real-time interactive 3D apps (although now possible since JDK 1.5 w/OpenGL), the tradeoff in letting the VM sort memory and other unfriendly aspects really does favour developers and end users.

The safety of the sandbox mechanism has gone missed in this whole thread. This is an area where Java is strong, with only a few sandbox exploits as of lately.

Old versions and even some current C++ compilers dont check for stack/buffer overflow potential. Infact, the /gs switch has only been introduced in the last year for C++ compiling for MS compilers.

[Aaron]

Well, I write operating systems for a living so I don't have much choice between the two.

I think that Java is great if you need to develop something quickly and cheaply. Add cross-platform portability and it becomes very useful for enterprises and small companies/individuals.

However, it does lack some of the control and customisability of C++. And because it doesn't have things like automatic garbage collection, it actually makes the developer think about what they're doing and its consequences, which isn't a bad thing in my opinion. C++ is still the choice for most "serious" programmers, IMO.

.NET seems more about politics and marketting than technology to me though.

Given that the modern PC is in the GHZ+ , and that most Java applications that ive come across are not real-time interactive 3D apps (although now possible since JDK 1.5 w/OpenGL), the tradeoff in letting the VM sort memory and other unfriendly aspects really does favour developers and end users.

...assuming the app is being developed for a PC. There's still a lot of mobile devices (PDAs, phones, etc) with much more limited memory.

[javalord]

Well, I write operating systems for a living so I don't have much choice between the two.

I think that Java is great if you need to develop something quickly and cheaply. Add cross-platform portability and it becomes very useful for enterprises and small companies/individuals.

However, it does lack some of the control and customisability of C++. And because it doesn't have things like automatic garbage collection, it actually makes the developer think about what they're doing and its consequences, which isn't a bad thing in my opinion. C++ is still the choice for most "serious" programmers, IMO.

.NET seems more about politics and marketting than technology to me though.



...assuming the app is being developed for a PC. There's still a lot of mobile devices (PDAs, phones, etc) with much more limited memory.

Yup and J2ME + environment specifcation will be decided beforehand.

I think its a little silly to say that developers dont "think" about what they're doing thou I'd say some just dont care enough to pay detailed attention, rather than think.

But without a doubt, where performance and flexibility is concerned, C++ still wins here, although Sun are attempting to open up the Java library source codes to academics only... wonderful :S

[Spud1]

... I really can't believe that some ppl here are choosing java as a perference over c++...

Ok so it has its uses, mainly in the web domain where something needs to be used on multiple platforms without needing serparate compiled versions, or for J2ME apps its perfectly suited - but could you imagine writing a full 3D game in java? or a fast, usable IDE for example?

Its just not suited to large scale PC apps, and this is mainly due to the fact that it is so slow...A prime example is borlands 'jbuilder X', ironicly a java IDE built on JAVA. Its painful to use, so slow when you try to do anything more advanced than write a few lines of code. Try any of its graphics features and you might aswell go make a brew while it tries to load.

Compare this to visual studio.net 2003 , completely different, much faster. Or maye thats not a fair comparision, so compare it to borlands own C++ builder, again the difference in speed and usability is immense.

The main problem isnt shoddy coding here, its more to do with the fact that its an interpreted language, whereas C++ is pre-compiled so is naturally going to be faster to execute.

Then there comes my next major gripe with java, the lack of pointers....Ok so they are there, but not in anywhere near the same way as C/C++ etc; this limits its usefulness again.

Its plus points as far as i can see are just that its quick to program in for small apps, and i can't argue with that, but it would be useless for anything big

just my opinion there, take it how you will

[DaBeeeenster]

++ is still the choice for most "serious" programmers, IMO.

Actually I find this statement both snobbish, elitist and utterly wrong.

Any programmer choosing their programming language based on nothing other than whether it is "serious" or not is being desperately unprofessional. Choose the right tool for the right job. Simple as that.

[DaBeeeenster]

Yup and J2ME + environment specifcation will be decided beforehand.

I think its a little silly to say that developers dont "think" about what they're doing thou I'd say some just dont care enough to pay detailed attention, rather than think.

But without a doubt, where performance and flexibility is concerned, C++ still wins here, although Sun are attempting to open up the Java library source codes to academics only... wonderful :S

This is NOT TRUE. Java is often FASTER than C++ in tight looping (i.e. a server environment).

http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer...benchmark.html

Google "java C++ performance". The trick is twofold:
1. The JVM can make processor based optimisations to the java bytecode before execution
2. The JVM can perform run-time optimisation.

C/C++ gives you neither of these things.

[yamangman]

But with C++ you can port or create your own memory managers, with Java's garbage collection you do not have the option. You have to use the automatic process. Of course the main reason for this is security due to it's interpreted nature, but you have no control over when any garbage collection takes place. I think that's the main gripe for real-time apps.

[DaBeeeenster]

But with C++ you can port or create your own memory managers, with Java's garbage collection you do not have the option. You have to use the automatic process. Of course the main reason for this is security due to it's interpreted nature, but you have no control over when any garbage collection takes place. I think that's the main gripe for real-time apps.

That's fine. Dont use it for real time apps!