Archery

[TooNice]

Has anyone done it before? I have the chance to try some club activities at my local university in Tokyo and unlike universities or anywhere else as far as I know, there are literally hundreds of "official" clubs to choose from. I checked out a couple of today including Karate, Iaedo (forms with a Japanese sword) and (Western) Archery. I checked out the later on a whim, and until today, I never really thought of joining an archery club, so I am a bit surprised to find myself rather intrigued by it. Has anyone done it before? What do you think of it?

I was actually looking for the BB-gun club too but couldn't find it (I know there is one), as sounds pretty fun too. Both are target shooting, but I wonder if letting an arrow fly might be a little more satisfying than firing BBs. Well, I am going to proper orientation this Sunday so I can make up my mind then, but any comments would be welcome

(I know there is also Kyudo - Japanese archery - but I would be more included to learn the Japanese way of the sword in that case)

[kalniel]

Has anyone done it before? I have the chance to try some club activities at my local university in Tokyo and unlike universities or anywhere else as far as I know, there are literally hundreds of "official" clubs to choose from. I checked out a couple of today including Karate, Iaedo (forms with a Japanese sword) and (Western) Archery. I checked out the later on a whim, and until today, I never really thought of joining an archery club, so I am a bit surprised to find myself rather intrigued by it. Has anyone done it before? What do you think of it?

I was president of my university archery club, which wasn't the largest club in the world, but we successfully competed in varsity, regional and national competitions. I shoot (well, shot, been a few years) a Perris Whitehart with Border limbs (38 and 44lbs for indoor and outdoor respectively). So yeah I kinda love it (though not quite enough to find time for doing it at the moment).

What do you want to know?

[TooNice]

Well, the first thing I did after I got home yesterday as to Google bows and it did not take long for me to stumble upon the recurve vs compound bow question. But let's rewind a little.

Of the three clubs I visited, this one was the largest and seemingly relaxed (it's very social, though they do compete with other local universities). Club training is once a week, for 2.5-3 hours. It may also well be that I only have 8 months left in Japan. Depending on where I end up next, it might be more, or less difficult for me to practice and the worst case scenario is this could be the end of it. If I have to buy my own gear, it may not be very good value money wise. But ignoring cost for a second, what is the learning curve of the sport like? I am usually quite patient and do not require immediate gratification, but limited time left, I am a bit worried that I will spend 5 months getting frustrated as I can't hit the target at all, only to have to take a potentially long break just as I am starting to get the hang of things. I don't have any unrealistic expectations of becoming "good" in under a year, but is it a sport you can get over the initial hurdles, whatever they may be, and just enjoy it.

Also, is it comparable to any other sports? Thanks

[Smudger]

I'm a member of a local archery club, and used to shoot every weekend. It's (strangely) quite relaxing for me, you can have the targets close if you just want to have a bit of an informal shoot, or move them back for more of a challenge. If you're a beginner, the bow and assorted bits needn't cost you an arm and a leg. I think you can get enough to get you shooting for £100-150. Also, a lot of archery shops do a limb exchange, where they'll swap out the limbs when you get stronger or start shooting longer distances for nowt, if you've bought the bow from them. My club has some people who are into traditional bows as well, so I've had a go on some horse bows and a few longbows. The strongest I've pulled is an 80lb longbow, which was a struggle, but you feel like a wuss when they tell you that the average bowman was pulling 150-200lbs at Agincourt!
I started off doing 4 lots of 2 hours on a beginners course, and by the end of it, I was pretty good at short distances (4-5 out of 8 arrows in the gold at 30yds), so it's a pretty quick learning curve. My club also provides gear for the training courses so you can have a go, then if you don't like it, you haven't laid out a load of cash for something you're not going to use.

So, in short, see if you can borrow gear from the club, and give it a go. Oh, and I'd stick with recurve to start, compound bows are stupidly powerful!

Oh, and if you're coming back to the UK, this may come in handy: http://www.archerygb.org/

[kalniel]

Yes, it's comparable to most sports/hobbies. The learning curve is very rewarding because you get instant feedback about how well you're doing, and you are to a large extent competing against yourself. As with anything, you make the biggest gains early on, then it gets harder and harder to find the extra gains. There are lots of things technique-wise to remember, but just like playing the piano or whatever, you can't be thinking about all of them all of the time, so you train yourself with the basic things until it becomes muscle memory and you can think about more advanced things and so on. If you were to list the things being controlled during an actual shot it would look really complicated/impossible, but by working up to it over time it's manageable. In recurve, only about 10% of the accuracy of the shot comes from where you're actually aiming the thing!

So types of bows - in the UK there are three categories for target shooting (I won't cover field archery): Longbow, recurve and compound. There is no small amount of arrogance between the categories as to which is best (it's recurve, by the way).

Compound bows are the most technological - they use pulleys, triggers, levels etc. to make holding the bow at full draw quite easy and reducing the need for good technique on release etc. Ergo compound shooters are all soft and if you're going to do that you might as well just go shoot guns.

Recurve has limited technology - the weight of the draw increases with length but you are allowed some sights and dampening aids.

Longbows are more for hobbiests than competition shooting - as mentioned above they're mega hard to draw and it's as much about physicality than technique. For many it's about the whole traditional experience, eg fletching etc. rather than accurate target shooting. However everyone secretly thinks longbows are cool, so you'll get lots of respect even if it'll ruin your technique for other forms of shooting.

So in my opinion recurve is the nicest blend of technology and room for personal skill - it's still physical, but you can't allow your muscles to get too big because then the jitter steps (~tremor) are too big for accurate shooting - so you've got this wonderful compromise of getting your strength just right. And likewise limb weight (power) - ideally you want as fast a shot as possible as it makes the trajectory flatter and shorter and thus less prone to environmental interferance etc. - but too much limb weight and you need bigger muscles which reduces accuracy, and your chances of going into fatigue are higher. Ditto limb size - longer limbs don't stack in draw weight quite as fast when you draw them so you can pull them back further (hence longbows) - but they have more air resistance so aren't as fast as shorter limbs. When I was shooting recurve was by far the most popular in the UK as well. The bows are also quite reasonable and good ones are probably cheaper than for the other categories due to economies of scale, and there's a lot more of them on the second hand market.

As a beginner you don't need much equipment - the club will almost certainly be able to fully kit you out. And as hinted at above, the equipment doesn't make huge amounts of difference compared to technique, particularly at the early stages - my first regional competition medal was won whilst using a sight made out of a pin stuck in a bit of tape.

[Ttaskmaster]

I was one of the Bowmen Of Harrow for a few years.

I shot Recurve initially, starting with a training bow and moving up to insanely expensive pro-level kit (Hoyt were the favourites back then, for those who could afford to drop a grand on the riser alone!).
We had one kid who, at just 18 years old, was on the Olympic team. He'd just pick a point on the indoor 25m range wall and spend hours thunking arrows in next to each other with the signature rattle.

I got bored of shooting Recurve quite quickly. I tried Portsmouth, Worcester, Warwick, Western, York, Hereford, Albion and a bunch of others I can't recall. I also shot Clout, Field and a couple of Popinjays.

The thing that bored me was how you chuck on your longrod, stabilisers, clicker, kisser, sights and all this gubbins, to the point where it felt more like a science and mathematics geek club than a fun activity. So long as you followed every step, aligned every muscle and did every tiny little thing by the book, you'd sink your shaft (ooer missus) into the gold every... single... time. Obviously the challenge was getting every tiny thing right, but that gets tiresome. Olympic Kid was a case in point - I recognise the art in what he did, but to me it was no different to spending ages building and tweaking a gaming PC but never actually playing games on it.


I tried a Compound a few times but came to the conclusion that, while it felt wicked-bad unleashing something like that, its only purpose was to ram an arrow into whatever you're hunting... preferably something large enough to feed a squad of hungry squaddies.

So I of course ended up with the Nonnies (as in Hey Nonny Nonny) in the Longbow crew.
Great for field archery and I took to this much better, especially as they preferred to shoot at unmarked distances and my particular talent was high-wind shots. You'd be stood on the line, watching everyone else shoot. The wind would pick up the flag and all bows would drop apart from one, an arrow would loose and thunk cleanly into the gold, everyone would turn in amazement and I'd be stood there looking stupidly smug!!
Could barely hit the target at any other time though, but hey...

Eventually shooting static targets bored me further. I briefly experimented with a 'Custom Longbow' I had made - Actually a 40" scaled-down version. Hickory/Maple mix with a draw weight of 45lbs. It's the only one I know of and the bowyer broke several test models figuring it out. He also demanded I take good care of it as he's "NEVER making one of these ******* monstrosities again!!".

On the side, I was also into LARPing (Live Action Role Play) at the time, wherein we used low power training bows and naff arrows that had massive foam heads on them. Hitting a target beyond 10 feet was considered good.
Of all the shots I ever took, the legendary ones were always while LARPing - Moving targets at unmarked distances using god-awful kit under ridiculous circumstances, with the added pressure that missing means you'll get smacked round the head. Great stuff!!
I've made shots at distances those bows should never be capable of, I've been tied to a tree and shot left-handed while bent around the tree, I've made most of my Legolas/Kevin Costner 'twin'shot' (and occasionally triple-shot) attempts and so many others that I never went back to basic target archery.


In the end I simply moved on.
I don't have the kind of patience and attention to detail for archery, really. I took much better to hand weapons and have stayed a swordsman ever since.

[Smudger]

I don't bother with all the fripperies, I just shoot a recurve with no sights, balancers, dampers or anything. It feels more pure, and has nothing to do with the fact that I couldn't hit a cow's bum with a banjo using a sight.
If you're starting out, a bow with a wooden riser will be the cheapest option but will only go up to 34lbs or so. A metal riser will set you back more, but will go to a higher poundage. My wife and I went for a couple of steps above the most basic metal and it cost us about £300 each, which was everything, riser, limbs, string, stringer, clicker, bag, arm protector (essential, can't remember how many times I twanged my left forearm when I was starting out. Even with a protector on, it hurts!), glove and wax for the string.

have stayed a swordsman ever since.

Fnaar fnaar!

[kalniel]

My wife and I went for a couple of steps above the most basic metal and it cost us about £300 each, which was everything, riser, limbs, string, stringer, clicker, bag, arm protector (essential, can't remember how many times I twanged my left forearm when I was starting out. Even with a protector on, it hurts!), glove and wax for the string.

Clickers are torture devices! Avoid using them as long as possible

Forearm protector - well, you'll learn really quickly how to rotate your elbow without

Swordfighting.. most of us in our club did fencing (mostly sabre) as an aside/change, but personally I didn't find it anything like as satisfying as archery.

[pp05]

I did try an introductory session at a club in London.

[Smudger]

Clickers are torture devices! Avoid using them as long as possible

Which is why mine has remained in the bag so far! The flimsy plastic rest which I though would fall off in a week is still going strong...

[TooNice]

Thanks for all the input I am really looking forward for the trial session tomorrow. I have more questions right now, but as some will probably be answered during the trial tomorrow, so I will wait till then before asking more questions.

[Ttaskmaster]

Swordfighting.. most of us in our club did fencing (mostly sabre) as an aside/change, but personally I didn't find it anything like as satisfying as archery.

I hated fencing. I took far better to Broadsword and Quarterstaff!!

[TooNice]

It's been a while, but I am back. I've decided to join the archery club, though I am still a complete beginner, it's pretty fun, and I'd like to stick with it for a while. At this point, we are being gently nudged us into buying a bow. The club seems to favour a particular shop, who seems to favour Hoyt bows. As far as I know, everyone in the club shoots with one. My first reaction when flipping through the catalogue is "Darn, they are expensive". I am not sure if bows are more expensive in Japan (wouldn't be a surprise, outdoor stuff tends to be more expensive over here in my experience - at worse double US price).

I am not sure what are the main parts of a recurve. But in the catalogue (which I do not have on me), I recall seeing the grip and limbs build sold as individual parts, and and the top of the line parts go for over £1000! Per parts! I never knew bows were so expensive. Presumably, they have more modestly priced parts too, because the club officers gave a quote of "between £645-£1055" for a "complete set" (bow, arrows, other stuff including a hard trolley case).

Pretty much every 1st years are buying new. And it makes sense because as long as they commit, it's really not too bad over 4 years. On my end, I am not sure if I can keep this hobby after I leave Japan, which at the earliest could be in 6 months and latest about 18 months. So I may be looking at second hand bows. Is it a good idea? Can you save quite a bit when going used with bows? Can they still work perfectly well (barring cosmetic issues)? In fact, given the option of going for an entry level bow brand new, and a slightly higher end bow second hand for the same price, which should I go for? Cheers.

[kalniel]

I've only ever bought second hand risers and limbs. Check the limbs for a smooth draw, fastments on the riser are in good conditions etc. Budget for a new fastflight string and down the line some arrows (but start off with second hand, aluminium ideally until you stop breaking them )

[DanceswithUnix]

I am doing a beginners course at the moment, and the club have said from the start under no circumstances buy anything. At the end of the course, they offer a couple of weeks to consider if you want to join up and continue, and at that point they get someone to come and *rent* you a bow. The reason they give is that after a year you will almost certainly want a different bow, and at that point they will help you buy one.

[TooNice]

About the draw weight, are there any benefits from going for a heavier one? I am no bodybuilder but I do train and am probably a little stronger than average. When the regular members let us pull the string on their bow, many seem to find it pretty heavy whereas I did not find it that bad. If I work on it, after a month or so, I could probably handle even heavier draw weight, but is there any point for that for target shooting?