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About LinkBacksI see the UK has already conceded on the single market.
I see the UK has already conceded on the single market.
You mean it took the Brexit campaigns to make you realise politics is about spin and rhetoric, and to notice that not every word coming out of politician's mouths is not the simple, plain, unadulterated literal truth? That politicians will deceive and distort to get their way. Wow. Most of us work that out after experiencing our first general election campaign, or even just listening to a TV interview or two with the two-faced deceitful snakes that most politicians are, incapable of answering apparently even the most simple question in a straight-forward way. Face it, nearly all politicians are, at best, professional deceivers, and often, bare-faced liars.Originally Posted by cheesemp
And how do we know that "many" voters were "persuaded" by that £350m figure? After all, it was very heavily disputed, and even rejected by many on the Leave side.
But on the subject of lies, what about the economic disaster that was supposed to befall us after a Leave vote? Note, not actually leaving, but an immediate recession after the vote? Well, those forecasting it were wrong, from the Treasury to the IMF, and have subsequently had to eat humble pie and revise the forecasts UP. Twice. In 10 months.
Yet those are the same forecasts we're supposed to believe pressage doom and gloom.
I'm sorry you're being taken into a Brexit you didn't vote for, but at least you got to vote. Heath took us into the Common Market without bothering to give us a vote, then successively, Major signed us up to Maastricht and Blair/Brown signed us up for Lisbon, again without bothering to ask the people.
I've had some 45 years, my entire working life as near as dammit, stuck inside one form of political/economic integration or another our politicians foisted on us without ever bothering to give us a vote before doing the foisting.
At least you voted, and lost. I just got lied to on a collossal scale, not just a dubious £350m, and stuck with it without even having a vote.
malfunction (30-03-2017)
Depends what you mean.
Just about every European politicisn and EU official commenting on it has made the point membership of the single, or more accurately "internal" market, requires acceptance of and adherence to ALL FOUR of the fundamental tenets, and that includes freedom of movement of people, and moreover, meansxbeing subject to the European Court of Justice. Yhere can be and will be, they repeatedly said, "no cherry picking". Leading figures on both Leave (Gove, Johnson and Farage among them), and Remain (Cameron and Osborne for a start) stated very clearly, before the Brexit vote, that Leave would mean no membership of the internal market. In the case of Cameron and Osborne, it was used as a threat.
However, we will have access to the internal market. The question is about the degree, and terms. That's what's about to be negotiated.
So it's not much of a concession, as both sides have been saying it dince well before Referendum day.
Given that Britain is leading the G7 on economic growth, and is set to continue to do so for at least the next decade, I don't think you have much to worry about. If they get things right, I might move back...
I'm sorta impressed that you only saw the claims that we were definitely leaving the single market from Farage etc, and not the ones where they derided the idea as scaremongering & that we definitely weren't leaving. What're the odds?
Muddle through the best i can, there's not much else i can do.
Haven't they made that illegal now, besides i wouldn't want to risk being beaten with my own sign by an irate TV presenter
No, i look awful in Camo.
Well yes you have to live with it but like i said living with it and doing what Mrs May keeps telling us, that we have to all unite behind it, are two different things, taking things to extremes it's a bit like saying the German people had to unite behind the holocaust, or Africans had to unite behind apartheid.
EDIT: If uncertainty is worse then we've got plenty of that to come, at least 2 years while the negotiations are conducted and possibly many more years while trade deals are sorted out and parliament rewrites laws, rules, and regulations.
Last edited by Corky34; 30-03-2017 at 09:42 AM.
Zak33 (31-03-2017)
I think that is the fundamental problem here, the act of having a referendum split the population down the middle. A divided population can harm our GDP far more than the £350M painted on the side of that stupid irrelevant bus.
Our starting strategy is "cancel our debts or we send Brummie Jihadis to murder you"
Are we the baddies?
Slightly overselling that me thinks. And I voted remain!
I can't argue with that as i wouldn't know one way or the other, however IMO we only find ourselves where we are now because Cameron thought using a hastily thrown together referendum would be a good way to combat UKIP and the Eurosceptic MP's on the right in his own party, in the end it backfired horribly on him.
I'm guessing you missed the bit where i said "taking things to extremes"
LMAO,the saviour of Brexit,Farage has got all his bases covered:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/nigel-...isaster-2017-3
But,but take back power - oh wait,if it goes all awry,he can leave the mess he left behind and go la!la!la!la!la!Nigel Farage will abandon the UK if Brexit is a disaster, the former UKIP leader said on Monday night.
This is exactly the same crap the politicians in this country pulled during the colonial times when they screwed over countries and dumped them when they realised things were too hot to handle.
Now its the same with their own country,except the vast majority of the people here can't ALL leave like Mr Farage can if things go down the drain.
Why does he not stick with the country he is born in,EVEN if things go awry?
It seems his patriotism knows no bounds!!
No because most of them are public school educated twits who come from rich backgrounds and have wealth so politics is a game for them,and the worst which can happen is they are wrong,and it will have ZERO effect on them apart from a bruised ego.
It makes me laugh when many people here voted the Tories in,and ended up getting screwed over and started moaning at Cameron and then voted him in again,and that is after the pretend Labour Tory Blair. He did what Tories do,and people actually were shocked at what happened.
Then they end up putting even more faith in MORE EXTREME Tories.
LMAO!
It shows you the politicians who believed most in it,already had an escape plan if it goes tits up - Farage buggered off to the US the moment the pound tanked 20% after Brexit,so he nicely made a profit.
Looks like politics in this country is repeating themselves - every politician makes grandiose claims,which repeatedly never is what it seems in reality and they end up making sure they are themselves financially sorted out,and then the cycle repeats. By now we should have gold plated streets and everybody would be working three day weeks living in a 5 bedroom house. I honestly think people have the attention span of a Gnat.
I honestly wish that every politician when they enter politics had to disclose every bit of their finances to an independent body,and a list of people who earn over £100000 a year who they have personal relationships with.
I better hope we get some deals sorted - the WTO is not as nice as people think,ie,people forget things like the Banana Wars,where the US forced bananas from South America on us.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 30-03-2017 at 10:51 AM.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b09025ba310fce
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7104846.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7518281.html
But now he, Nigel Farage and Vote Leave chief Matthew Elliot have been spliced together in one 90-second clip decrying a place for post-Brexit Britain outside the Single Market, the system that means countries can trade without tariffs based on agreements on things like immigration.The video includes highlights such as:
Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market
Daniel Hannan MEPAnd when you remember that Norway are in the Single Market but not the EU, it makes these quotes quite awkward reading.Only a madman would actually leave the Market
Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer
Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They’re rich. They’re happy. They’re self-governing
Nigel Farage, Ukip leaderThe Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people
Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executiveIncreasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK
Arron Banks, Leave.EU founderNow this year:Boris Johnson: UK will 'still have access to single market’ despite Brexit
Nope,Farage,BoJo and a number of them pointed out Norway and Switzerland as examples,and said leaving the single market is suicide,and now they have backtracked on it.Nigel Farage has no response to caller who points out both Norway and Switzerland have freedom of movement
Even the Swiss government despite its own referendum which wanted immigration controls,actually still decided to accept free movement to maintain access:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rs-immigration
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and...ns-for-brexit/
Remember this is the same country which puts large defence purchases to referendums too:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ojections-show
Both those countries have freedom of movement and pay into the EU pot too. This is what was stated by the other lot beforehand and they were right.
Its all on record and there is no denying what they stated either.
Edit!!
Am I surprised?
Nope.
Seriously if people hate Cameron,do you honestly think BoJo,Gove or Farage are any better? Same kind of old boys networks types - they must be having a good laugh at all the plebs believing them and fighting over them.
All skilled liers.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 30-03-2017 at 11:34 AM.
Phage (31-03-2017)
I saw all sorts of statements from all sorts of people, evolving over time, but one thing that changed who said what was the declarations from the EU powers-that-be. These included definitive and categoric assertions that the 'four freedoms' were, and I quote, "indivisible", and that there would be "no cherry-picking", no retaining of single market membership without accepting everything that went with it, including ECJ Jurisdiction and freedom if movement of people.
After that, both sides repeatedly and very prominently stated that leaving the EU meant leaving single market membership. This included, mere days before the vote, the PM and Chancellor both appearing on Sunsay TV shows (Sunday Politics and Marr show were the ones I recorded) and using this "no membership" as if it were a threat. Leave campaigners, like Gove and BJ then agreed that, given the EU's statements, a Leave vote would indeed mean no single market membership because of the conditions the EU imposed on it, which were absolutely incompatible with fundamental objectives of Leaving, like having control of our own borders and not being subject to EU courts.
This whole business of "membership" of the internal market was explicitly spelt out, very prominently, and covered ad nauseum by TV news, current affairs programs like Newsnight, and radio current affairs programs like R4's Today program.
Frankly, trying to suggest that this wasn't an agreed impact by both sides, albeit with very different interpretations of the scale and nature of the consequences, is either a sign of not having paid attention, or of a revisionist approach to history.
I've just been back over some of my DVD archived political programs to be sure my memory doesn't deceive me, and the above is all right there in glorious BBC colour, as clwar and unambiguous as possible - a Leave vote WILL require leaving internal market membership because the EU mandate it. And, as it's their EU, they are perfectly entitled to do so.
It's not what many Leavers would prefer, but it is the EU's call, so it's what we will have to deal with. As many others have said, you can't leave the club and retain all membership benefits. And that fact was categorically clear, pre-referendum vote.
According to most of the world, yes. We're the oppressive colonial power that countries all over the world have spent the last couple of centuries trying to rid themselves of. I suspect the irony of our current political position is not lost on them...
I'm pretty sure that the only thing stopping us being the baddies, globally, is Trump's presidency.
Have you read the actual Art. 50 letter, not the provocative garbage headlines some cheap rags put out to sell papers?Our starting strategy is "cancel our debts or we send Brummie Jihadis to murder you"
Are we the baddies?
That is NOT the tone the PM took, but the fact, and I say FACT most carefully, remains that by leaving the EU, the process involves repealing UK legislation that gives legal effect to EU treaties, and THAT means a number of other things, some of them involving intelligence and policing, WILLhave to be subject to new deals, and that includes things like European Arrest Warrant, and Europol membership.
The Art.50 letter is, after all, a formal document invoking Lisbon Treaty provisions, and that combined with repealing the european Communities Act WILL have legal impacts in a variety of areas. What the letter said was we wanted a deep partnership with the EU, and of necessity that will involve deals covering these areas because, in the absence of such deals, the current legal framework some of these things require to function will have ceased to exist.
We all know certain tabloids love their provocative front pages, which are primarily designed to sell copies, but the truth is somewhat more prosaic.
As with trade, much of this cooperation is in both the interests of the EU andEU, so it's hard to see why a deal could not and will not be reached, BUT as existing legal frameworks ARE disappearing, new deals will have to be reached.
This is not a threat, but a simple fact.
Personally, however, I would point out to the EU that, in their own words, they cannot "cherry pick". Any deal has to suit BOTH sides, or it won't happen, and it is not in the EU commissions power to simply dictate their needs and we will automatically sign it. It has to work for both sides.
TBH,don't our lot spin the rest of the world outside the US is evil and bad and steals our monies,etc and they are all stealth invading our country and we will become a vassal state?
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