What a load of bull.. (belgium GP)

[staffsMike]

I admit the emotion driving the fight in me is due to being a fan of hamilton but I'd be disgusting with the ruling (if a little relieved) if the roles were reversed and it was Kimi coming out on top.

kimi had got scrappy and twitchy due to the weather, so Halimton had made the 1.5 or so seconds he was behind, up on Kimi in no time what so ever.

So we I'm sure can agree that at that time hamiliton was easily in the stronger position.

Entering that corner ahead of Kimi, I don't agree he had the right to turn in, giving how tight it is, but what I will say is that since he was in front, Kimi should have allowed him enough room on the track to finish the corner, he had the stronger position on the way in, but would have been on the outside on the way out.

Kimi closed him out, effectively causing that slight bump and if Hamilton hadn't have acted.. they would both been out or at least caused some real damage.

If Hamilton was behind going in I might agree but it seemed he had the edge during breaking not just flying in wrecklessly hoping that Kimi yeilds. Kimi was already in the weaker car and was behind entering that corner.. so I have to disagree that he was in the wrong and would argue that Kimi caused that collision as he too had no right to expect Lewis to yeild.

[danroyle]

i think this is a little harsh i watched it and felt he gave the place back and even ron dennis said after the race that they had spoke to charlie and he said it was fine.

does seem like someone doesn't want lewis to wan a title anytime soon, because he keeps having these bouts of bad luck.

still 5 races left though so he can still win the title and if he does all will be forgotten

[ACiD303]

Again I ask what advantage did Hamilton get? He allowed Kimi to go passed him.

this_is_gav already pointed it out:

Raikkonen retook Hamilton into the chicane (Hamilton had got on his outside under braking), then Hamilton attempted to go around the outside. Space ran out, so he cut the chicane, resuming ahead of Kimi. He then blended out of the throttle just enough to allow Kimi to get ahead (there wasn't much more than a car length separating them, if that), then Hamilton just took the opportunity to out-brake him into turn 1.

Had Hamilton stuck to the confines of the race track in the chicane, he'd have to have backed off, and would have been more like 0.7-1.2 seconds behind Raikkonen. He therefore gained an advantage by cutting the course, and more so used it to aid an overtaking manoeuvre.

Basically when Hamilton let Kimi through he put himself in a position to take that position back immediately: whereas had he been following Kimi through the chicane, he would've been considerably further back and probably not have had him at turn one.

[this_is_gav]

kimi had got scrappy and twitchy due to the weather, so Halimton had made the 1.5 or so seconds he was behind, up on Kimi in no time what so ever.

So we I'm sure can agree that at that time hamiliton was easily in the stronger position.

Oh certainly. Unless he threw it away in the different circumstances, he'd have still won if he'd just backed off at the chicane. It makes it all a bit more questionable as to why he chose to do this.

Entering that corner ahead of Kimi, I don't agree he had the right to turn in, giving how tight it is, but what I will say is that since he was in front, Kimi should have allowed him enough room on the track to finish the corner, he had the stronger position on the way in, but would have been on the outside on the way out.

Kimi closed him out, effectively causing that slight bump and if Hamilton hadn't have acted.. they would both been out or at least caused some real damage.

If Hamilton was behind going in I might agree but it seemed he had the edge during breaking not just flying in wrecklessly hoping that Kimi yeilds. Kimi was already in the weaker car and was behind entering that corner.. so I have to disagree that he was in the wrong and would argue that Kimi caused that collision as he too had no right to expect Lewis to yeild.

Looking at the 2 available camera angles, I don't think they touched at all. Hamilton just chose to turn left instead of backing out. Kimi had the corner - his rear wheels were level with Hamilton's front wheels.

Again I ask what advantage did Hamilton get? He allowed Kimi to go passed him.

I've already explained in depth. As below.

You clearly haven't watched the race.

Raikkonen retook Hamilton into the chicane (Hamilton had got on his outside under braking), then Hamilton attempted to go around the outside. Space ran out, so he cut the chicane, resuming ahead of Kimi. He then blended out of the throttle just enough to allow Kimi to get ahead (there wasn't much more than a car length separating them, if that), then Hamilton just took the opportunity to out-brake him into turn 1.

Had Hamilton stuck to the confines of the race track in the chicane, he'd have to have backed off, and would have been more like 0.7-1.2 seconds behind Raikkonen. He therefore gained an advantage by cutting the course, and more so used it to aid an overtaking manoeuvre.

That is a pretty clear definition of cheating.

It was the same as Suzuka '05 when Alonso overtook Klien by cutting the chicane, then to try to give the position back, just backed out of the throttle, then immediately ducked back under Klien, got a slipstream and promptly overtook him again, all in one straight. Alonso gave the position back properly a lap or 2 later, but had he not, he'd have been given a penalty, like Hamilton today and at Magny-Cours. He gained an advantage through not staying within the confines of the race track.

I can't see the argument for not applying this penalty. This is an incident where precedence has been set in the past, has been handed out when necessary when drivers haven't given the position back either, and the punishment is always the same.

[ACiD303]

kimi had got scrappy and twitchy due to the weather, so Halimton had made the 1.5 or so seconds he was behind, up on Kimi in no time what so ever.

So we I'm sure can agree that at that time hamiliton was easily in the stronger position.

Entering that corner ahead of Kimi, I don't agree he had the right to turn in, giving how tight it is, but what I will say is that since he was in front, Kimi should have allowed him enough room on the track to finish the corner, he had the stronger position on the way in, but would have been on the outside on the way out.

Kimi closed him out, effectively causing that slight bump and if Hamilton hadn't have acted.. they would both been out or at least caused some real damage.

I dare say Hamilton probably would've done exactly the same thing had he been in Kimi's position. This part is simply racing.

If Hamilton was behind going in I might agree but it seemed he had the edge during breaking not just flying in wrecklessly hoping that Kimi yeilds. Kimi was already in the weaker car and was behind entering that corner.. so I have to disagree that he was in the wrong and would argue that Kimi caused that collision as he too had no right to expect Lewis to yeild.

Being in a weaker car or not, I doubt any F1 driver's contracts include yielding to cars that may or may not be better - they're not in the business of giving places away. And going by this logic you mentioned, I would then say Lewis commited an unforced error by Kimi.

But I don't think anyone had the right of passage in this instance, and it was at this stage simply 2 racers going head to head.

[kalniel]

It was the same as Suzuka '05 when Alonso overtook Klien by cutting the chicane, then to try to give the position back, just backed out of the throttle, then immediately ducked back under Klien, got a slipstream and promptly overtook him again, all in one straight. Alonso gave the position back properly a lap or 2 later, but had he not, he'd have been given a penalty,

So Kimi being given the lead a lap or 2 later doesn't count in this case then, when it did for Alonso?

[this_is_gav]

So Kimi being given the lead a lap or 2 later doesn't count in this case then, when it did for Alonso?

Well no, because Hamilton didn't yield, he went off. It's slightly different.

Put it another way - you questioned why Kimi wasn't penalised at Monaco, but if he had been, by your definition, he shouldn't have been, because he lost time...? No? Didn't think so.

Alonso was told to back off properly by his team, which he did, then overtook Klien a lap or 2 later, properly. If Hamilton had done that today, we wouldn't be having this discussion. He's the one with the championship lead, so he ought to be the one not putting himself in situations like these.

[staffsMike]

But I don't think anyone had the right of passage in this instance, and it was at this stage simply 2 racers going head to head.

If it didn't come accross in that garbled mess that is what I felt lol, neither had the right.

On the point of two racers going head to head, why not just let them race? Hamilton gave the place back, let him cross the line at which point it was on again. Leaving it another lap or two having backed off wasn't really an option unless he wanted to pass him on the parade lap..

[j1979]

You clearly haven't watched the race.

well im not sure you did either, kimi did not follow the race line on the first corner, lewis had 3 choices, crash into kimi, stop and risk stalling or cut the corner.

F1 is a complete joke.

[this_is_gav]

On the point of two racers going head to head, why not just let them race? Hamilton gave the place back, let him cross the line at which point it was on again. Leaving it another lap or two having backed off wasn't really an option unless he wanted to pass him on the parade lap..

What's the line got to do with it?

Leaving it a lap or 2 is just what Alonso had to do (it was dry, and this is F1). Hamilton needn't have waited that long. He was better on the brakes and probably could have taken him into Les Combes (and David Croft annoyed the hell out of me by continually referring to it as "the chicane". BLASPHEMY! (if technically true) ).

[this_is_gav]

well im not sure you did either, kimi did not follow the race line on the first corner, lewis had 3 choices, crash into kimi, stop and risk stalling or cut the corner.

Which first corner are you referring to? It seems to be a mix of the Bus Stop and La Source. How you can cut a hairpin with a concrete wall on the inside, I've no idea.

[staffsMike]

Sorry I mis-understood, I take that back.

But what exactly should he have done in that situation once on the pit straight. Do you think there was a way for him to avoid the penalty?

[ACiD303]

But what exactly should he have done in that situation once on the pit straight. Do you think there was a way for him to avoid the penalty?

Tuck up behind Kimi through the first corner

[this_is_gav]

Or if he wanted to be absolutely safe (shouldn't have been needed, but he does have a lead to protect) then back off half a second further.

In all likelihood he was going to win anyway.

Sorry I mis-understood, I take that back.

No need. My grammar was hardly making things clear in that post.

[staffsMike]

I don't see why though, Kimi by that time was as ragged as he was when he crashed. Hamilton seemed far more in control and made a fair move (into the first corner).

I just can't see how an advantage was gained, it was an advantage he already had, which he used to put himself in an almost reasonable position to pass into bus stop.

Had he have backed off and followed Kimi he would have been in the exact same position. He gained nothing either way.

[this_is_gav]

I don't see why though, Kimi by that time was as ragged as he was when he crashed. Hamilton seemed far more in control and made a fair move (into the first corner).

I just can't see how an advantage was gained, it was an advantage he already had, which he used to put himself in an almost reasonable position to pass into bus stop.

Had he have backed off and followed Kimi he would have been in the exact same position. He gained nothing either way.

He so wouldn't have been in the same situation. He would have lost a lot of momentum to Kimi, on the inside, on an off-camber corner, in a traction zone, in the wet with dry tyres. He'd have been an absolute minimum of 7 tenths down on Kimi, and that's assuming Kimi messed up the exit to a certain degree and Hamilton nailed it.

He wouldn't have been in a position to even make a move into turn 1.

As it was, he was about half a car length behind him (so about a tenth, being kind) before they started braking. That's the advantage which is causing the problem. It's not that he gained a position or let Kimi back through or anything, it's that he put himself in a position to gain a position, if you follow me.