Recommend a cheap car for commuting?

[DanceswithUnix]

Those very, very handy with a spanner and happy to get bits from the scrapyard for repairs where necessary.
The incredibly naive, car wise.
Those with money to burn and don't mind being stranded without a car occasionally.
Those that feel like gambling.

That seems rather strong!

Parts for my Alfa are not cheap. That is the true downside to ownership. But the parts are changed at the yearly service I have when the MOT is due, not because it has broken down.

The upside is that my car doesn't bore me rigid, and frankly for the number of hours I spend driving I think it is worth spending a couple of hundred quid a year more on parts. I also find German cars uncomfortable to drive.

However parts for a Punto are cheap, and unlike an Alfa (where I really would recommend using one of the excellent enthusiast specialist garages that are dotted around the country) they are common enough that a local independent should be able to service it.

So Jim: If you get a Punto, and you live near the M25 then hopefully see you at Brooklands for the Auto Italia event in May. A Punto is as welcome as a Panterra GT5 (though you won't get as many pictures taken )

[Biscuit]

That seems rather strong!

Parts for my Alfa are not cheap. That is the true downside to ownership. But the parts are changed at the yearly service I have when the MOT is due, not because it has broken down.

The upside is that my car doesn't bore me rigid, and frankly for the number of hours I spend driving I think it is worth spending a couple of hundred quid a year more on parts. I also find German cars uncomfortable to drive.

However parts for a Punto are cheap, and unlike an Alfa (where I really would recommend using one of the excellent enthusiast specialist garages that are dotted around the country) they are common enough that a local independent should be able to service it.

So Jim: If you get a Punto, and you live near the M25 then hopefully see you at Brooklands for the Auto Italia event in May. A Punto is as welcome as a Panterra GT5 (though you won't get as many pictures taken )

I also find German cars somewhat overrated, both in comfort and drivability. I haven't had any experience driving Mercs though!

I have found with my Civic Type R that the reliability is what you would expect with Honda, but when the typical, 'consumables' need replacing (like brakes, tyres) or when you need to get specialist checks done (like valve clearances)... it hits you really hard. Doesn't matter at all to me though, I enjoy that car sooooo much!

My logic goes along the line of, If you want solid reliability, get a Honda or a Toyota. If you want good reliability then get Ford, or certain Fiats. Never been a fan of French cars.

[badass]

My logic goes along the line of, If you want solid reliability, get a Honda or a Toyota. If you want good reliability then get Ford, or certain Fiats. Never been a fan of French cars.

Statistics disagree with some of your logic. The Which results are compiled from a huge sample size.
Rough guide for relaibility:
Toyota/Honda: 4 stars (Best)
German cars: 3 stars (average) with the exception of some specific models such as the Passat with it's dodgy electric handbrake, the original BMW one series (1 star!) and 2007-2009 2L diesel anything by BMW (serious design flaw that destroys the engine, BMW dodges responsibility)
Ford diesel: 2 stars (poor) Petrol 3 stars (average)
French/Italian: 2 stars (poor)

[abaxas]

You also have to factor in cost of ownership too.

Eg rover, breaks often, cheap to fix
Honda, breaks occasionally, more expensive to fix.

[Tumble]

Bottom of the line fiat's are typically great cars. I'm probably slightly biased by having an l reg punto s 60 (not the lowly 55!) which took all kinds of abuse over 5 years and 60k with no servicing till someone decided to write it off by smashing into it to get at my £5 maplin clearance head unit.

Here on planet Earth, however, they tend be awful creatures.... (operated 3 of em long term and they were all honking)

[kalniel]

I thought their basic cars were good. When I was up north the family run vaux specialists I used to use admitted that they got their girlfriends puntos. Could be because they were easy to fix up in the workshop I guess.

But I'd still go for an Aygo/C1/107 if you don't mind the noisy engine and slightly firm ride. For a bit more comfort go up to a VW UP or Yaris.

Alternatively, most car for the money is something like a Vectra or Mondeo - mate of mine just got a Vectra for silly money - it's a barge, and not that economical, but the savings on purchase price mean he's effectively got it for free as it won't depreciate any more meaningfully. Avoid diesels, the petrol ones are more reliable and cheap to fix.

[DanceswithUnix]

French/Italian: 2 stars (poor)

The statistics I have seen have looked pretty ropey though, usually harvested from warranty claims so it starts with selection bias and then I would assume is tainted by all the things that car warranties usually don't cover. Looking over the "typical failure" for Alfas because that is what I know, I compared my 147 with the GT (my wife has one) and when that wasn't making sense I cross checked with figures for the 156 because that is the car that both the 147 and the GT is based on. Known problems (they eat suspension bushes, cheap clutch slaves die after 5 or 6 years, and the horror I was expecting to see snapped cambelts) I couldn't see, but there are descriptions of transmission problems costing a couple of hundred quid to fix. Firstly, I don't know of any such common problems, and secondly I can't imagine anything like that costing less than £600 to fix because, as I said earlier, the real problem with Alfas is that parts can be rather expensive and sometimes hard to replace so what sounds simple ends up as a 2 hour job.

Heck, just lumping all French cars in together at 2 stars seems wrong to me. Not a great fan personally, but I have seen some pretty spectacular Renault failures, whereas Citroens and Pugs don't seem anywhere near as bad.

I would take more notice of what the RAC breakdown people say. In the couple of times I have used them in the last 20 years of driving mostly Alfa's they have been quite pleased to see an Alfa as regardless of what Top Gear might say they apparently don't get called out to many, and they seem to like the change.

[herulach]

Statistics disagree with some of your logic. The Which results are compiled from a huge sample size.
Rough guide for relaibility:
Toyota/Honda: 4 stars (Best)
German cars: 3 stars (average) with the exception of some specific models such as the Passat with it's dodgy electric handbrake, the original BMW one series (1 star!) and 2007-2009 2L diesel anything by BMW (serious design flaw that destroys the engine, BMW dodges responsibility)
Ford diesel: 2 stars (poor) Petrol 3 stars (average)
French/Italian: 2 stars (poor)

Thats a complete load of guff though, as Dances w/ Unix points out, its warranty data not actual repairs, so car never has a warranty claim & then engine falls out a day out of warranty = 100% reliable, car has a rattle = 100% unreliable.

Lumping all french/italian cars into one category is frankly ridiculous - Where does the 107 fit and why is it worst than the Aygo (a 'japanese' car which shares identical engine & running gear).

Even putting a full marque into the same category is ridiculous. All manufacturers have poorly designed cars and ones that will run for ages.

[badass]

The statistics I have seen have looked pretty ropey though, usually harvested from warranty claims so it starts with selection bias and then I would assume is tainted by all the things that car warranties usually don't cover. Looking over the "typical failure" for Alfas because that is what I know, I compared my 147 with the GT (my wife has one) and when that wasn't making sense I cross checked with figures for the 156 because that is the car that both the 147 and the GT is based on. Known problems (they eat suspension bushes, cheap clutch slaves die after 5 or 6 years, and the horror I was expecting to see snapped cambelts) I couldn't see, but there are descriptions of transmission problems costing a couple of hundred quid to fix. Firstly, I don't know of any such common problems, and secondly I can't imagine anything like that costing less than £600 to fix because, as I said earlier, the real problem with Alfas is that parts can be rather expensive and sometimes hard to replace so what sounds simple ends up as a 2 hour job.

Heck, just lumping all French cars in together at 2 stars seems wrong to me. Not a great fan personally, but I have seen some pretty spectacular Renault failures, whereas Citroens and Pugs don't seem anywhere near as bad.

I would take more notice of what the RAC breakdown people say. In the couple of times I have used them in the last 20 years of driving mostly Alfa's they have been quite pleased to see an Alfa as regardless of what Top Gear might say they apparently don't get called out to many, and they seem to like the change.

Thats a complete load of guff though, as Dances w/ Unix points out, its warranty data not actual repairs, so car never has a warranty claim & then engine falls out a day out of warranty = 100% reliable, car has a rattle = 100% unreliable.

Lumping all french/italian cars into one category is frankly ridiculous - Where does the 107 fit and why is it worst than the Aygo (a 'japanese' car which shares identical engine & running gear).

Even putting a full marque into the same category is ridiculous. All manufacturers have poorly designed cars and ones that will run for ages.

And you have both made the same wrong assumptions.
The statistics come from a survey to which members that own the cars so are not based on warranty claims.
The reliability ratings are per model, not brand. However they do have an owner satisfaction for brands.

So thanks Herculach, you've called my post based on actual data a load of guff based on a load of false assumptions.
If I was reading this thread, I know who most people would be ignoring and who they would actually pay attention to.

[Smudger]

My Peugeot 406 will not die, so therefore all Peugeots are extremely reliable.

Edit: In answer to the original post, I can only echo what others have said. Yarises (Yarii?) seem to last well. But mid sized cards maybe better value, up front cost will be less, and economics aren't that far behind small cars.

[DanceswithUnix]

And you have both made the same wrong assumptions.
The statistics come from a survey to which members that own the cars so are not based on warranty claims.
The reliability ratings are per model, not brand. However they do have an owner satisfaction for brands.

OK, so I tried having a look on the Which website, but it is behind a paywall so I guess I will never know.
However, I was asked to do a survey of my car ownership experience for which I could win some fuel. I hope they base their results on more than than a survey of the opinions of the sorts of people that buy a Which subscription though (and no, I didn't bother with the survey).

JD Power do an interesting survey which has a big score for dealership experience which with Italian cars tends to be beyond awful but that is made up for by independent enthusiast garages. Also interesting that JD power cite foggy windows as a common irritation in cars, so I guess for our market if a car doesn't come with heated front windscreen it is at a disadvantage.

[kalniel]

Also interesting that JD power cite foggy windows as a common irritation in cars, so I guess for our market if a car doesn't come with heated front windscreen it is at a disadvantage.

Isn't that what air con is for (granted, heated window has nice benefits when scraping ice)

[krazy_olie]

I was enjoying my 56 Toyota Yaris until it got taken out by a van.
Quite like my 09 Ibiza, found one from a Seat dealer that had a fairly high mileage a few years back so got a newer car than I was expecting to be able to afford, fortunately it came with a year's warranty as the gearbox went o.O.
It drives well I think, not as good as the Yaris in town but better on on country lanes/motorway.

[herulach]

And you have both made the same wrong assumptions.
The statistics come from a survey to which members that own the cars so are not based on warranty claims.
The reliability ratings are per model, not brand. However they do have an owner satisfaction for brands.

So thanks Herculach, you've called my post based on actual data a load of guff based on a load of false assumptions.
If I was reading this thread, I know who most people would be ignoring and who they would actually pay attention to.

A) I didn't I called the survey a load of guff, which even if it isn't based on warranty data, it probably still is. Selection Bias still exists in a survey of which readers. If you cite paywalled surveys people have no choice but to make assumptions about the content.

B) it still doesn't address the point that manufacturers are not reliable or not, models of cars are. Would I trust a 107 more than a 308? Absolutely. Just as I'd trust a punto further than a fiesta ecoboost. Or for that matter a diesel focus further than the focus ecoboost.

I've no interest in who pays attention to who to be honest, I was just pointing out that the assumptions you are making about reliable manufacturers don't hold true, although they may have once.

[DanceswithUnix]

Isn't that what air con is for (granted, heated window has nice benefits when scraping ice)

Yes and that works well enough for me. I have yet to have a car with heated front windscreen, perhaps if experienced I would consider that a must have.

Still, I guess it comes down to the fact that not all aircon is up to the same standard, if it can't do humidity reduction then it won't help.

[kalniel]

Still, I guess it comes down to the fact that not all aircon is up to the same standard, if it can't do humidity reduction then it won't help.

Then it's just air-chilling, not air-conditioning

I don't know how much regulation cheaper systems have I guess - but the process of air cooling itself removes humidity so even cheap systems will lower humidity.