ah I thought that too, as the battery's looked strong, but some EV's prevent more than 1 fast charge before a trickle is required. SO there must be a potential long term issue ...or maybe jusy an over heat?Originally Posted by Moby-Dick
I'd put myself in cases 1,2&3
Not sure rapid charging degrades the battery as much as you would think -
The only EV I know with that issue is the new leaf (search for "Rapidgate" )- If you back to back rapid charge them it throttles the charge rate , but that is because rapid charging puts a fair amount of heat into the cells. Nissan cheaped out and didn't put in active thermal management for the battery pack. The older leafs dont have that issue ( smaller battery pack so less time on charge/less heat )
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You can only "fast charge" up to around 75-80%. After that you will start to hit the maximum voltage and that becomes you're limiting factor. In technical terms, you go from CI (constant current) to CV (constant voltage). And it's the current that charges the battery, which will drop away for higher the state of charge. That's why you typically see figures that state "20min to 80%".
Don't seem to be able to link an image for some reason (might be a work proxy thing), but Google "lithium battery charge graph" images to see what I mean.
Heat can also be an issue as well, although batteries become more efficient the hotter they get.
Oh, I entirely agree. For what I suspect is a sivnificant minority, the current (excuse pun) state of EV's makes sense, and as tech improves and prices (too slowly) come down, that minority grows.
I can't wait for it too include me.
BUT .... I did stress, "for me". I'd guess, currently, most car buyers would agree. EVs currently (suit some profiles, but not others.
Thing is, outside of extreme examples (like ultra performance cars) most of my criteria are met by most ICE cars. The fuel mileage varies, buf so does tank size so you still get probably minimum 300 miles, and there's the ssme level of choice and convenience in filling stations.
And I have a huge choice, from sporty, to 4x4, to smsll, mrdium or large saloons, etc. I can go for relatively cheap or pricey luxury, etc, and they ALL met those basic criteria, subject only to me deciding to go Kia or Mercedes, or whatever.
Personally, I WANT to go EV, but not until they meet my needs and currently, they don't.
Sadly, at my age and mileage, I may well but only one more car. Or I may even just drive my current one 'til it falls apart, and then jyst use taxi's .... or electric auto-piloted Ubers.
But if my final car is to be an EV, the industry really needs to pull it's finger out in meeting those criteria before, for me, it's too late.
Cars with adequate battery thermal management don't suffer from much battery degradation from rapid charging. The (air-cooled, unheated) Nissan Leaf is notorious for it. Tesla (who have decent battery management - and the highest wattages for rapid charging) are averaging about 10% range loss per 160k miles.
We're not far off hitting your criteria.
300 mile EVs are now available - Any 75+kW Model S, or the long-range-battery Model 3, can do it. The industry is currently offering a bunch of 240-ish-mile models (Chevrolet Bolt, Kia Niro EV, Hyundai Kona EV, Jaguar I-PACE, Audi e-Tron), and anyone without that 240ish milestone isn't really serious about the market right now.
Obviously Teslas aren't cheap, but my point is they are actively available - as choice goes up, range goes up, and price comes down. The 64kWh Hyundai is 30 grand on the road, including the £3500 OLEV grant, and claims a 300-mile WLTP-rated range. It's a far cry from garbage trash range cars like the e-Golf
Charging is improving over time. 5000 additional chargers came online in the UK in the last year. Rapid (i.e. mid-journey) chargers increased from 2600 to 4000. Are there places that's not convenient? Sure. Is Ecotricity's near-monopoly on rapid charging probably not a great thing in the long run? Sure. But, again, it's vastly improving.
Cost per mile depends very much on where you're filling up. At home, you're looking at 12-13p per kWh to charge (and a kWh will get you 3-4 miles, depending on the car), so let's say under 4p per mile. Ecotricity charge 30p per kWh (half that if you use them for domestic supply), so that's more like 9p per mile. Tesla charges 20p per kWh (with 400 kWh free per year for new Model S/X buyers, and free for sufficiently old vehicles incl. used), so 6p/mile. A 45mpg diesel is about, what, 13-14p per mile at current petrol prices?
I've known plenty of people whose commute adds up to over 20k miles per year. A couple of jobs ago I worked with someone who had been doing that for a really long time so had kept records that showed that diesel was by far his dominant cost despite him pootling down the M4 behind the trucks to keep the mpg high. He wouldn't consider an electric car though, despite a 50 mile trip to work so 100 miles round trip being doable on a single charge. He just didn't want the up front cost.
Electric cars should be simpler than modern ICE cars by some margin, are there good figures on comparative service costs yet?
Is that really an issue for you? I probably run out of fuel about every 15 years for some usually stupid reason or other, and it's never in walking distance to a garage. I don't put fuel cans in the boot either, I figure I am at least as likely to have some dullard drive hard into the back of my car as I am to run out of fuel so it isn't worth the safety aspect.
Last edited by DanceswithUnix; 26-10-2018 at 08:23 AM.
Less so in a car perhaps, as it's a habit from motorcycles with reserve tanks that were only ever approximate.
But with Brexit coming and belts tightening things might get pushed closer to the limits more frequently.
I've had to walk before and once or twice call out the Plum Patrol*, but more often had to Patrol out to the Plums or even just stopped to help someone, and found they've run out while en-route to that very filling station.
*Term derriving from the inevitable phone call - "Help me mate... I bin a Plum. I run out of Patrol, innit?"
There's one or two things I didn't list too, but any car has to meet ALL those critetia, not some in one model and others in another.
For instance, purchase price comparable with ICE alternatives AND a range per 'tank'.
Othrr considerations would be how long a battery will last, AND whether it'll still hit those ranges towards end of life.
Also, if there's any chance I need to replace it, what that would cost.
Then I will either buy a car with a view to having it for it's viable life. With ICE, that's at least 25 years, or changing every 3 or 4 years, in which case what is depreciation like?
I agree EVs are getting closer to my criteria, but a major concern, especially for strategy 1, which is probably what I will do, and I regard EVs as an emergjng technology that is still evolving significantly every year. ICE are pretty mature, with tweaks but no huge changes (that I want) year by year.
Last time anyone looked closely, depreciation of a Tesla was much better than a comparable ICE, and depreciation of everyone else (which at the time were 100-mile things like the Leaf) was much worse.
How much of that is brand cachet, and how much is "this car is worthless because next year's model will have 2x the range" remains to be seen.
I'd regard Tesla depreciation with care, at least until they are inevitably bought out by a proper care company who knows how to produce them at a consistent profit.
But over what period?
See, that kinda works against me either way. As I said, I might buy a car with a view to ONE more purchase in my life. If so, it would possibly be at the higher end, in which case Tesla is an option, but current low depreciation makes a car a year or two old less appealing, whereas with ICE, you csn save a good chunk by doing that. For instance, one 'supercar' I looked at a few years back dropped about £30k in price in 12 months and 1500 miles. Why? Because unless it did, most peopke buying would just buy new. The reason I decided against, then, was down to servicing costs, servicing frequency and to impracticality of that being my only car if I did keep it long term.
On the other hand, if I go for something more mundane it's likely with a view to three to five years, then trade-in, and EVs are a questionable proposition in that category because the tech is evolving so fast.
Either way, right now, logic suggests I either go ICE, or simply sit on my hands and wait.
Oh, and of course, if I go 'long-term' one-car strategy, it has to be something I think I'm going to enjoy driving for perhaps 20 years-ish, both in tetms of ride, comfort, etc. That is where one aspect of EVs scores well - noise. Ir rsther, lack of noise.
I wouldn't mind testing one to see how much better they are, if at all. The only reason being is that I think most of the noise I can hear on the motorway is tire and wind noise. You can pick out the engine noise, but doesn't seem as loud as these and I wonder how quickly I would just adjust if it wasn't there anyway.
True enough .... but it depends what the engine producing the engine noise is. Ever tried a carburreted V12 Lamborghini?
Premium cars generally have a 6-7 year generation, with a mid-generation 'facelift'. Both the facelift and new generation release lead to spikes in depreciation. The Tesla Model S was introduced in 2012 with a late facelift in 2016, so it's getting pretty tired, but they aren't talking about releasing a new generation. It's very hard to say how Tesla will depreciate until that happens. Premium Saloon cars generally have savage depreciation, so Tesla's are likely to do well in comparison.
But that's why I'm either likely to go for just one more car, in which case I don't much care about depreciation after I've bought, but pre-purchase depreciation might affect the buying choice, or for a non-premium car with a view to maybe 3 years, then look for 'one last car'.
But it's pretty much academic for me right now anyway, since EVs don't meet my criteria. Yet.
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