What IS the One Ring.....really?

[Zak33]

This thread is DEEP....so dont fall in unless you are confident

It has arisen in my mind, as it did last year, because I watched the third disk of The Fellowship last night....and a rather neat word came up:

ALLEGORICAL.....(prounounced "al·le·gor·i·cal")


I remember it from Tolkien... JRR hated it....it is the seeing of something within something. It is that something is characteristic of something else.....

and in this case....

WHAT IS THE RING? Seriously.....what is it for.....how did it work?

We know it makes you go invisible.....woopee..

Why is it THE ONE RING? What did Tolkien have in his mind?

The man himself denied it 100%.....he claimed it was simply The One Ring to Rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them....etc etc

But......1000's of people have wondered.....did it represent Nuclear Weapons? How can this round bit of metal control Man Kind via the 9 rings for Humans?

We see Sauron "weilding it" in an attempt to defeat Isildur (sp?) ....SO WHY DID IT turn Isildur to greed and power.....?

Why did it transform a little chap called Smeagol, who was swimming once, into Gollum....? And why did Frodo never weild mammoth power......he simply went Invisible sometimes....

WHAT IS IT? Why did Sauron make it at all....why doesnt it ever get back to him?

Anyone help my head on this ...please

[Zak33]

my further thought train

(I apologise for the numbers of rings, if they are wrong, its been along time )

3 rings for Dwarves in their halls of stone
7 for Elf Lords under the sky
9 for mortal men, doomed to die....

and ONE RINGTO RULE THEM ALL.....so why didnt it work?

People desire it.....lust for it....imagine if Galadriel HAD taken it...what would she have become?

Blooody invisible

but POWER....Im lost

[Zak33]

reference from an Online Dictionary:

allegory

\Al"le*go*ry\, n.; pl. Allegories. [L. allegoria, Gr. ?, description of one thing under the image of another; ? other + ? to speak in the assembly, harangue, ? place of assembly, fr. ? to assemble: cf. F. all['e]gorie.] 1. A figurative sentence or discourse, in which the principal subject is described by another subject resembling it in its properties and circumstances. The real subject is thus kept out of view, and we are left to collect the intentions of the writer or speaker by the resemblance of the secondary to the primary subject.



If Tolkien REALLY hated the principle of Allegory, then what was the ring...cos he never explains it (imo anyway)

Its a round bit of metal, you can't kill people with it, you cant control them with it, it just makes then terrified of its owner, who seem sto be able to see out of it, and given enough time wearing and using it, you become a loathesome, pitifull creature, scared and terrified of the ring maker but somehow never getting to him.

[Nick]

Elves and Dwarves the wrong way round bud, 3 for Elves, 7 for Dwarves... not that it really has an eefect on the thread... but sometimes pedantic mode just can't help but kick in..

Gonna have a mull on your thoughts, as I know that general consensus was of either nuclear power OR communism and nuclear power.

I myself think that the ring was an allegorical representation of an IDEA or THOUGHT... a notion of some form, like Communism is actually a thought process whereas nuclear weapons/power are an actual THING.. see what I mean?

I'm not saying that the thought was actually communism though.. perhaps it really is as simple as the ring being the embodiment of evil... and the books are just a demonstration of how evil corrupts even the most pure of heart. Maybe there is no hidden meaning.... gonna have a think on this...

[Zak33]

but was The Ring Nazi-ism? John Ronald Ruel Tolkien was a soldier...its considerable....

BUT THE AUTHOR DENIES IT....he was an Oxford don in English Lang and Lit....he knew what it meant....he even emntions it in a preface (dont ask where, I only know cos its was on the disk)

He DID NOT mean it to be an allogorical Ring...

it JUST IS THE RING.....and even a s a kid when I first read it (10 years old) I didn't understand just what it was.

Why must a small band of gold be so powerfull if NO ONE knows HOW to use it.

I mean.....lets say Boromir gets it...given freely by Frodo....

Q: WHAT WOULD HE DO WITH IT?
A: Put it in, disappear to human/demi human vision, but APPEAR to the Ring Wraiths vision.....then get a subliminal message from Sauron that he was a Very Naught Boy and to bring it to Mordor ASAP.....

This is making me quite angry.......HOW WAS IT OF ANY USE? No one knew how to use it OTHER THAN GETTING INVISIBLE....

Galadriel had her own ring, and she was a powerfull magic user.......maybe her ring gave her those powers.....maybe they enhanced them. We just dont know.

Its never even vaguely explained.

And as for good old Gandolf.....The Grey OR The White....

what WOULDhe have done with it? Is it an amplifier?

And Saruman.......the mind BOGGLES......maybe he'd have turned to Mordor....but lets face it, he already had

My head hurts

[Tumble]

Maybe it's just a big wireless LAN? In purely scientific terms - I suppose you could call the ONE RING the server, and the other (sub)riings the workstations, seeing as how the ONE RING (has to be in caps, dunno why, maybe it's just Zak messing with my head ) has a certain hold over the other rings, and the evilness about it is like a power trip, cos u got the admin password and can just nuke anybody u like with. Maybe it's got a terminal server in it too, which is how he can see out of it....

either that or it's magic, but you'd have to ask Harry about that

[fondie]

i'm glad that tolkien mentions allegory, i find that often things are read into book/stories/novels/films etc that just aren't there, is it too hard to believe that writers do not have some deep hidden meaning behind their work! why should the ONE RING refer to anything else, it's just the ONE RING, that exists purely in tolkien's fantastical world without any equivalent in ours.

as to the actual power of the ring, along with invisibility it does allow bilbo exceptionally long life, prehaps even immortality? it's true power lies in the hands of Sauren however, taken from this site, http://tolkien.cro.net/rings/sauron.html :-

It was part of Sauron's scheme to ensnare and enslave the users of all the rings of power and so control the Noldor of Middle-earth. Sauron planned for the domination of all of Middle-earth and he needed/wanted to control the Elves to complete this plan. This was the reason for the forging of the One Ring. Sauron went to Orodruin, Mount Doom, to forge the Ruling Ring, and by putting a large part of his own inherent power into the Ring he created a means by which he could enslave the users of the rings.

Yet while Sauron wore the One his powers on earth were actually enhanced. Its powers were primarily of domination and control. He used the power of the Ring to rule whole peoples who worshipped him as a God-king. Through its use he could control the orcs, the trolls, the Haradrim, wargs, and his most feared servants the Ringwraiths. Because Sauron could already control the weather and the Fires of Mount Doom, these too would have been further enhanced to truly frightening levels if he had regained the One. With the One, his Eye would have seen every thought or action anywhere in Middle-earth; no secret could have been kept from him and no one could have withstood him. With the One, Sauron would have captured the Three Elven Rings and he would have used them to create Timeless evil in Middle-earth; all under the control of the One.

[THCi]

My simple thoughts:

OIL.

It has caused wars: Gulf I and II.

Created strife: 3rd world countries with large oil reserves.

Thats just my thoughts, please feel free to rip them apart if you wish!

[Zak33]

You see......the Allegorical question again....

If Tolkien truly did belive in the One Ring as a basic magic then fair play to him.....

OIL however is a fantastic Allegorical ideal...

now Fondie, my Badger loving fellow

That web site you quote is in itself allegorical...cos Tolien himself did not write those details, did he?

Someone believes its what he meant.....but its not his words

[Zak33]

in FACT......more from that site

with ref to Ring Wraiths , and did they carry their own rings ?

Quote:
Did the Nazgûl Wear Their Own Rings or Did Sauron Hold Them?

From: Erik Tracy

This is a hotly debated issue. Some believe that the Nazgûl kept their own rings and were enslaved and controlled by Sauron through their rings. This side also believes that the Nazgûl derived their power as Ringwraiths by wearing their own rings. The only clear statement for this stand is during the Council of Elrond where Gandalf states that "The Nine the Nazgûl keep." There are faults with this position;

Don't you think that large parts of that web site ARE other peoples "understanding" of the book, not actual written fact? OK, not Allegory in this instance, because they are not reading a different STORY into the words, but they ARE looking to presume more than was ever pointed out? It is other people putting Tolkiens words forward without him being involved....and trying to create meanings where the master meant none?

I'm quite unhappy about this whole thing.....cos I've got a very wandering mind, and it is clear to me that the story is UN CLEAR and I hate doing the thinking about what he means, but it just happens....

and whenever I DO ask the question, I come around the same circualr arguement......the One Ring was of no use to anyone, and lets face it, if Sauron really WAS that hot with it, there is no way Isildur would have got near him, let along hack his finger off with a broken sword......and NOW, the world of Middle Earth fears him getting it, but the bloody ring does its utmost to NOT get back to him.....lets face it.....Smeagol was hardly a "hard bloke" and he could well have been mentally dragged back to Mordor....he even knows the damn way ..so why didnt he take it back?

[fondie]

i do agree, they are not tolkiens own words but i believe there is some fair comment in there, the important power that the one ring does posess it talked of by tolkien himself, from that page again, and also from this one http://tolkien.cro.net/rings/powers.html :-

"And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them."

[The Silmarillion]

Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.

[The Fellowship of the Ring]

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron... such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131]

so along with invisibility, it allows for the prevention of decay, as percieved by the wearer (long life for example), and allows for the enhancement of the users natural gifts, so in the hands of bilbo or frodo it has little power, but in the hands of someone powerful, gandalf for example it wields much more power, probably allowing him greater magical ability, but it is with Sauren whom the ring has the greatest potency, it contains the very power of Sauren himself, with him wielding the ring his former power is restored, and the users of the other rings fall under his control.

[Zak33]

Right.....you see I knew if I asked I would get there

Fondie...thats some good stuff......Silmarillion bored my legs off in all bar the fact that one of my favourite bands named themselves after it

But the Letter you show above....now if THAT is real, now we ARE TALKING

Now we are getting to Tolkiens actuall thought pattern...one that illustrates that your own ability is amplified.....perhaps magically.

Maybe the thing that makes me most tense is the fact that I really like stuff sorted, clear and concise and obvious, and yet in this case, even the Author didn't see it like that.....he lived in this world that he created, for most of his life BEFORE even putting pen to paper....and he was content with not clearly understanding it, himself.......

truly genious.....

Thanks Fondie....I think you have helped

[fondie]

hehe, no problem Zak

it's a very big world to know everything that's going on but still a world complete enough to easily get lost in the fantasy !

[petrefax]

my 2p on allegory

there used to be a poem pinned to a notice-borad in my mums house, written by my sister, it said

"summer days, summer fun
Summer now is almost done"

now if you gave that to an english teacher & told them it was written 200 years ago, they'd say something along the lines of
"well, the author was obviously talking about the coming of old age, brought on by the hardship of life commonly experienced in the time in which the authour lived, "summer" in this instance refers to the vigour of youth which the authour feels has passed them by & that they are entering "autumn". interestingly, old age is often referred to as "the autumn years" of life, the authour was obviously referencing this common saying"

the truth of the matter is, my sister was about 10 years old when she wrote it, it was the last weekend of the summer holidays, & she wasn't too hapy with the thought of going back to school nothing more complex than that

point i'm trying to make is, allegory is all well & good but just isn't always the case. imho its often just english teachers/professors or whatever trying to justify their salary!

just my opinion, feel free to disagree obviously

[Sair33]

The thing about literary debate is that there is no right answer in most cases, and in a lot of cases I'm sure Petrefax is correct in saying that people read far more between the lines than was ever intended!

....BUT Tolkein seems to have been so precise in everything he wrote, even down to creating a new language... SO MUCH thought went into those books, I find it hard to believe that what the ring meant wasn't the fundamental reason for writing the books.

[Russ]

It took him 14 years to finish the book, maybe the ring itself, was more about his self obsession with Middle earth, he wrote "The Hobbit" which obviously went into great detail of bilbo's adventures upto the lonely mountain. Then his obsession started with THE book. i mean, 14 years after studying mytholoy and acient languages at Oxford, the book drove him to this stupidly long process.

Maybe.. "knowledge is power", what if the ONE ring, simbolise's knowledge, complete knowledge, then the nine rings were shared, as if knowledge were shared, but not complete knowledge, just enough for them to want more, in the book it says about "they took the rings without questioning the consequences", people will always want more knowledge, driving them to search endlessly for it?#

ahhh the joys ok 1am logic :/