Government loses 15m people's personal data

[charleski]

Where did I talk about corruption?

I quoted your exact comment in my initial replay. I will quote it again here: "a large part of our political class, who in my opinion, do have their snouts firmly in the public trough".

Retract that, you avoid libel merely by avoiding the naming of any particular person, though you attempt to impute association by your following remarks.

Yet when it comes to responsibility for the departments they run, all of a sudden it's not their fault (which directly, is probably true) but it IS their responsibility.

And thus Paul Gray resigned.

This thread concerns politicians who are well-paid, very well expensed indeed, and with extremely good benefits all paid for by the public, yet they duck and dive the moment anything goes wrong. That's not corruption, and I didn't say it was.

"snouts firmly in the public trough" : YES, you accused them of corruption, and you need to substantiate that accusation or withdraw the remark.

And I'll say this one last time as well - if you want to complain about my posts do so to another Admin, not in this thread.

I'd suggest that you not engage in threads as a disputive participant as well as a moderator. You are mixing roles inappropriately. If you can't recognise and accommodate those criticisms, then yes, maybe we should report you.

[TheAnimus]

Saying it's only 10000 at risk is fine if you aren't one of the 10000. Yes, a centralised database carries inherent problems, and it makes life easier for those who want to use the data for nefarious purposes. But this is data that we voluntarily give up to people that we have no reason to trust more than we would trust the government. If this data places us at risk, then there are problems with the entire financial system.

Its about acceptable risk.

For instance we except that a certain number of people die crossing the street becuase they are hit by cars. Yet that will be of little comfort to the families.

When you look at what most commercial companies do with sensative data that they allow many people access too is add latency. Classic example is bloomberg/reuters, granted they are letting people have access anyway, but if your doing a full history of something, you should have to pay extra, yet you need to have access to all of the individual data. Adding a delay of a few MS per query can stop someone downloading all 25m records without it taking a week (giving plenty of time for superious to notice this). Then how come he even had access to a CD-R?

[Saracen]

There is no point further diversifying an interesting thread. If you are comfortable with the comment, then let it remain (not much I can do about that although I had hoped for a reflective, not defensive, response from a moderator). In my view your comments have become no less political than those you have removed from the thread.

Don't get me wrong, there is great value in your earlier postings, but the generalisations about Ministerial ineptitude and remuneration are unsubstantiated and, well, just unfair.

Government Ministers work hard, make difficult decisions and depend on delegated authority in their respective Departments. I should imagine that it is very tough at the top Saracen. Presumably, it is a prerequisite that it must be lonely.

The BNP is about as contentious as a subject gets, and if this thread goes down that route, it'll take the thread over. Hence the line - discuss it if you wish, but in it's own thread. There's nothing to stop anyone quoting the relevant starting point from this thread in another thread, and taking it from there.

But if the BNP discussion gets going in here, it'll rapidly end up being about that and nothing else.

As for the response, you did get a reflective look. I looked at it, disagreed with you and posted. But, though you didn't see it, I ALSO posted in the mods lounge asking for another Admin to look at it to see if I was out of line, and said that if so, I'd remove it. That has been done and the comment is still there.

So not only did I reflect, but I also got a second opinion. And I explained why what you referred to is a very different situation.

Most threads get discussion that digresses, at least to some point. We cannot and would not seek to suppress anything that wavers vaguely from the point. There'd be no debate, and we might as well all pack up and go home.

But mods and admins also have to keep an eye on overall running, and I'm not prepared to see this thread hijacked by a row about BNP, and it was already turning into a row. Hence me asking, twice, for it to stop, and hence being annoyed at having to spend quite a bit of time tidying up when that was ignored. As a member of the Mod team, I'm posting opinions that are my own. Anyone that has a problem with those, and thinks they're against the rules, should report that to another mod or admin, or David. Anybody and everybody is free to do that.

[charleski]

Adding a delay of a few MS per query can stop someone downloading all 25m records without it taking a week (giving plenty of time for superious to notice this). Then how come he even had access to a CD-R?

Having access to a USB port is even more damaging. In a security-conscious company there will be protocols in place to regulate this, but the fact is that the majority of us don't work in that sort of environment, and our personal data passes through many hands that could extract it if they wanted to.

[TheAnimus]

Having access to a USB port is even more damaging. In a security-conscious company there will be protocols in place to regulate this, but the fact is that the majority of us don't work in that sort of environment, and our personal data passes through many hands that could extract it if they wanted to.

So your sciting the bad apples of the commercial world as reason to tolerate incompetentce?

Also i have to say that snout in the swill tray is hardly accusations of bribes is it?

Its suggesting that they're more concerned with their paycheques than their work.

[charleski]

So your sciting the bad apples of the commercial world as reason to tolerate incompetentce?

No, I'm saying that the financial sector needs to tighten-up their systems. Asking me for my mother's maiden name doesn't really cut it as far as security goes. I give out voluntarily a huge amount of data to people that could be possibly be used to compromise my identity. I am just at risk as anyone would be if this rogue datadisc landed in criminal hands.

Also i have to say that snout in the swill tray is hardly accusations of bribes is it?

It is, it's a direct accusation of corruption.

[JPreston]

It is, it's a direct accusation of corruption.

Yep, it is

[santa claus]

snip,,,,,,,you did get a reflective look. I looked at it, disagreed with you and posted. But, though you didn't see it, I ALSO posted in the mods lounge asking for another Admin to look at it to see if I was out of line, and said that if so, I'd remove it. That has been done and the comment is still there.

So not only did I reflect, but I also got a second opinion. And I explained why what you referred to is a very different situation.

Most threads get discussion that digresses, at least to some point. We cannot and would not seek to suppress anything that wavers vaguely from the point. There'd be no debate, and we might as well all pack up and go home.....snip

Comments noted although I am surprised to read that your 'snouts in the trough' comment is now your considered opinion rather than a flippant remark in an otherwise interesting series of posts. I am also disappointed that it has been condoned by another mod (Moby-Dick?).

As is your preference, I will leave it at that. I do not post to be adversarial. A shame though that we have developed a 'heads must roll' culture especially when we are discussing the livelihood and integrity of some very dedicated people.

[TheAnimus]

No, I'm saying that the financial sector needs to tighten-up their systems. Asking me for my mother's maiden name doesn't really cut it as far as security goes. I give out voluntarily a huge amount of data to people that could be possibly be used to compromise my identity. I am just at risk as anyone would be if this rogue datadisc landed in criminal hands.

Erm I design trading platforms for the FSI, now working for a medium size hedge fund. So I do have to keep security firmly in mind. Now I will freely mock the security of commercial banks, but its really the best they can do. Mother's maden name, first pet, the problem is people don't remeber complicated passwords very well. Its the users who are failing, by lowest common denominator syndrome. A far step from biometrics, multiple complex passwords, and of course the old faithful RSA keyfob.

But even hudge companies like Lloyds (never worked for them) had leaks of personal data, but its not been the WHOLE database, there where some chinease walls in place.

It is, it's a direct accusation of corruption.

Disagree. Pigs in in the trough, to me, i think fat people concerned with their own feeding, corruption could be part of that feeding frenzy dosen't have to be.

[charleski]

Erm I design trading platforms for the FSI, now working for a medium size hedge fund.

Yes, so I have no doubt that you know more about how B0rked the current financial safeguards are than I do.

Mother's maden name, first pet, the problem is people don't remeber complicated passwords very well.

OTP passwords from independent time-based cryptographic devices. I seem to recall someone saying recently how cool it was that NatWest sent them one . Yes, there are alternatives. It doesn't cost any more than the potential loss from crappy security.

Disagree. Pigs in in the trough, to me, i think fat people concerned with their own feeding, corruption could be part of that feeding frenzy dosen't have to be.

No matter how you may feel obliged to protect Saracen, he needs to put up or shut up. There is no shame in acknowledging an error, I've certainly done just as much, but he needs to acknowledge it and move on, trying to hold out on this is just stupid.

[TheAnimus]

Yes, so I have no doubt that you know more about how B0rked the current financial safeguards are than I do.

OTP passwords from independent time-based cryptographic devices. I seem to recall someone saying recently how cool it was that NatWest sent them one . Yes, there are alternatives. It doesn't cost any more than the potential loss from crappy security.

No matter how you may feel obliged to protect Saracen, he needs to put up or shut up. There is no shame in acknowledging an error, I've certainly done just as much, but he needs to acknowledge it and move on, trying to hold out on this is just stupid.

Point is, a firm who can loose 15B easyily will use better proteciton than someone who has say 19k in the bank.

The thing is thou, that its not protecting bank accounts, enless your a real moron, you won't of used a childs name/birthdate for your only protection on your account. As such this data is of no use.

However to open one, it contains everything you need to know, all you need now are some payslips (which you have all the data to fordge) and you can have yourself a credit card. This is the problem, and there is no easy awnser to this.

As to protecting him, no, I was one of the off topic antoganists he meddled with the posts of, but i'm not going to insult him for it obviously. However in my mind that phrase has no corruption in mind, only greed.

[nichomach]

Name
Address
Birth Date
NI number
Bank Account details

True enough, but in the event of personally identifiable information being misplaced, private sector data controllers may be prosecuted and fined (as in the case of the Nationwide who were fined £980,000, approx for loss of a laptop with personal details on it.). The public sector bodies like HMRC can claim Crown Immunity, and do.

[charleski]

The public sector bodies like HMRC can claim Crown Immunity, and do.

Yes, you have a very valid point there. As a confirmed anarchist (Oh, I can see Saracen rolling his status-quo eyes here), but this is a prime candidate for the eradication of parliamentary privilege because it contravenes the interest of the public.

Crown Immunity is an Evil that must be expunged. The People of Britain have demonstrated their willingness to expunge this Evil on many, bloody occasions throughout History. If you would seek to oppose the manifest will of the People of Britain, then be prepared for their judgement.

[Saracen]

No matter how you may feel obliged to protect Saracen, he needs to put up or shut up. There is no shame in acknowledging an error, I've certainly done just as much, but he needs to acknowledge it and move on, trying to hold out on this is just stupid.

No matter how much you insist on your interpretation of what I said as being what I meant, it was neither what I said nor what I meant. It was not an error. I meant exactly what I said.

I do not "need" to move on because and I'm not changing my comments because you can't see that that comment didn't mean what you said it does. There is NO accusation of corruption and you saying there is doesn't make it so. Nor do I appreciate being told either I or my stance is stupid.

Now, debate mode off and admin mode on.

You think I meant one thing. I've told you that that is just your interpretation. You've made your view clear, and so have I and we obviously do not and are not going to agree. Fine, now move on, because that's going nowhere.

If you still think that that comment breaks rules, then as I've said, report it.

That is the correct way to deal with what you think is a rule break, not an argument in the thread. Someone else, maybe David, will deal with it and I'll abide by their decision.

And as for whether this is fair moderating or not, that also is for a report to another Admin or David. And I have no objection at all to you doing that. In fact, if that's what you think, I seriously encourage you to do so. But you do NOT argue about whether this is fair moderating or not in this thread. Do it in a report. That is not a request - it's an instruction from an admin, and telling you to take that to a report is an admin function.

Finally, I'm a member and a mod. Either the forum owners have confidence in my ability to admin fairly or they don't. If they don't, they only have to say so and I'll step down. They won't even have to remove me. Until that time comes, I'm going to participate in threads I want to participate in, because that's why I'm on HEXUS in the first place - because I want to participate, not because I want to Admin. After I left last time, it took David several attempts and about a year to get me to agree to come back. If he doesn't have confidence in my ability to do the job, he only has to say so.

Meantime, I am here in two roles, both as member and admin, and it is my responsibility to act as I see fit, which I have done in editing this thread ..... with a copy of the unedited version, I might add, and a request for the mod team to look at it, precisely so that I am not acting unreasonably. Whenever I take action on something, which is pretty rarely, it ALWAYS gets reported to the rest of the team. As you might expect, sometimes everyone agrees, sometimes not. That's why we have a place to discuss these things.



Now to this thread. The subject of the loss of this data, and the broader implications, are the political hot potato serious enough that it has TV political discussions like This Week speculating on whether it could mean the end for Brown's premiership. The answer, clearly, is "no", at least as things stand, but that they could ask the question at all is a sign of a very serious event.

Therefore, a thread about that should not be sidetracked by discussions of the BNP and that is why I edited that out of this thread.

Most threads wander somewhat about the point, and digress to some point at some stage, and that's fine. But the BNP are an extremely controversial subject and will, in fact already were, diverting this onto totally different grounds.

We'd end up having an intense debate about the BNP and their policies. Fine, but not in this thread. Both as an Admin, and as the thread starter, I'm not prepared to see a thread on a topic of this political significance dragged off to the BNP. That, in my view, is an absolutely correct use of Admin powers.

If you, Charleski, think it isn't fair moderating, then report it, as I keep telling you and others. But just as this thread is not about the BNP, nor is it about my moderating. So report it, or don't, as you wish. But either way this is not the place for that discussion.

I have explained the rationale behind by Admin stance this time, and I'm not going to do it again.

So, drop it in this thread and go back on subject.

[charleski]

No matter how much you insist on your interpretation of what I said as being what I meant, it was neither what I said nor what I meant. It was not an error. I meant exactly what I said.

Which was what, exactly? Did you accuse an entire class of people of corruption or not?

If not, then a simple retraction would be in order and quite satisfactory.

Now, debate mode off and admin mode on.

NO

YOU DONT GET TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. UNDERSTAND?

YOU ARE EITHER A MODERATOR
OR A PARTICIPANT IN THIS DEBATE

NOT BOTH

UNDERSTAND?

Make a decision and stick with it.

[Saracen]

Charleski, you were instructed to drop it.

You do not get to tell an admin, or any other member, what they can post on. You are not, despite what you seem to think, running these forums.

Your account has been suspended (for 3 days, while this is being discussed) and this matter, and this post, has been referred to the admin and mod team. That suspension may be lifted earlier than that, or it may become permanent, depending on their reaction.


EDIT - I have now taken this to David and left it with him. He'll make his own mind up, but it'll be a few days.