Should Scotland be independent?

[neonplanet40]

I agree .... but I wonder if people would vote for what they want, or what they think they want?

Like the argument over a referendum on Lisbon, if people don't understand the implications of what they're voting for, is it sensible to give them a direct vote, as opposed to electing people who (hopefully) make a career of understanding the implications of these things before deciding how to vote?

In my view, yes it is, and that's merely a reason for a frank and open discussion over the issues, educate people about the implications and then let them decide. But unless a proper debate occurs, and people pay attention, would a referendum give an informed decision or an emotive one?

Yes i see what your saying. But i think an issue of this magnitude would hopefully cause people to stop, listen and take in what is being said. I guess that is a generalisation though and theres always the chance that people will vote merely on historical or nationalistic notions.

But then again thats the only real reason they would want to be independent though is it not? I know there is other issues of course but I would think the above is the main one. We know they wouldn't be better off outside the UK in most shapes and form such as economically.

So we have to assume that the main reason they would want to be independant would be to finally get away from the grip of the British empire?

This isn't to cause contention here. Im just being frank.

[IBM]

Interesting comments given that a vast tranch of the "English" wealth in the last thirty years has come from oilfields that, were Scotland independent, would have made them a very Rich country

Actually, I think you'll find that the vast majority of English wealth came from London, more specifically the City of London.

However, if you insist, proof please.

......but I see your point.....now that England has exhausted most of the reserves, who needs them!!

Excellent point....if they want to try and get by without support from the English tax payer, more power to them.

[TooNice]

I'm not scottish , and feel free the scottish people should have the right to choose , but it does pose the question can scotland sustain themselves as a country?

That's something I've always wondered.

[Saracen]

....

But then again thats the only real reason they would want to be independent though is it not? I know there is other issues of course but I would think the above is the main one. ....

Well, it depends what you mean by things like "nationalistic", I guess.

I rather resent the increasing degree to which the UK is ruled by EU dictat. We, the people, have never been asked if we wanted to be part of a political union, and I for one, will resent it and object to it to my dying day .... unless we're given a chance to vote on it.

And before anyone says it, the referendum we were given was about coming out, not going in, and it was emphatically about a trading block, not political union of any sort.

So, as an Englishman and a Brit, I resent the EU being imposed on me. No less, therefore, than I think I would resent a Westminster Parliament being imposed on me if I were Scottish, or for that matter, if I lived in Northern Ireland and regarded myself as culturally and perhaps genetically from Eire rather than the UK. A large part of my objection to the EU is precisely because the people (in the UK at least) have never been asked. It's a modern day imperialism from those that think that our future is best served by being part of some European state. Whether they're right or wrong about it being better, I object to having their view imposed on me by stealth. I'm an economist by background, and have what I regard as being sound objections on economic grounds too, but my visceral reaction to having the EU foist on me by our political leaders is instinctive, and as well as because of rational objections.

So if I object to having the EU foist on me as a Brit, I can only assume that were I Scottish, I'd object in exactly the same way to Westminster rules (even if it does date back a few hundred years), in exactly the same way as I would object to rule from London is I were part of Imperialist India, or any other colonial conquest. I want a say on the EU, and no less than that, I can't see why the Scots shouldn't have a say on being in the UK. I hope they'd vote to stay in, but vote they should .... IMHO. Nothing short of a resounding vote to stay in is going to stop the independence movement. So my view is in or out, and let the Scots decide.

And it cuts both ways. Emzallan referred to an irrational anti-English movement. I'm not so sure it's entirely irrational ... and it's not restricted to Scotland either. Parts of North Wales come to mind too. But there's a growing resentment of Scotland among the English, too, which seems to amount to "if you want to be independent, clear off then", and is in no small part due to the hybrid political arrangement over the weird division of powers between Scotland and England. And there's a body of English opinion that also wished for Scottish independence on the basis that, as an MP for a Scottish constituency, they can also take Gordon Brown with them instead of lumbering the rest of us with him.

[Ganty]

if the people want it sure go for it, atleast it'd put an end to Rangers/Celtic wanting the premiership , kinda doubt it's in their best intreast to become independent tho.

[MadduckUK]

atleast it'd put an end to Rangers/Celtic wanting the premiership ,

and that would make me sad i think it would be funny

[Moby-Dick]

And there's a body of English opinion that also wished for Scottish independence on the basis that, as an MP for a Scottish constituency, they can also take Gordon Brown with them instead of lumbering the rest of us with him.

certainly - you elected the jeff-eyed idiot you can have him back...

[Champman99]

I voted no. I'm half english and half scottish, a product of the union as it were, although I was born and have lived all my life in England (so I'm in the not Scottish category).

The future as I see it is a more federalised system, with central government handling defense, foreign policy, immigration (among other issues).

Basically the current system with an English Assembly and slightly more devolved powers. (Not a Cornish one though... every time I see a Kernow sticker on a car I rage up, I'm not sure why I just do!)

I agree about a vote in principle though. Although who votes in a referendum? Scottish residents? Scottish "Nationals" (do I get a vote with a scottish parent)? Do English people living in Scotland get to vote? or for that matter, EU workers living in Scotland?

To coin a phrase I think it would be a very "Messy Divorce" if there was a yes vote though. BBC? Armed Forces? Monetary Policy?

[Dingo]

Actually, I think you'll find that the vast majority of English wealth came from London, more specifically the City of London.

However, if you insist, proof please.

The Forties and Brent oilfields which did so much to make BP and the British (read English) Government which issued the licences, the money did indeed flow into the City of London. Had Scotland been independent, those oilfields would have been in there territorial waters, they would have had the benefit of all those revenues (Licences\tax\export taxes).

then there's this
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5728477.ece

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIOBG...eature=related

or this
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/hamish/snppfc1.html

Excellent point....if they want to try and get by without support from the English tax payer, more power to them.

Would seem to suggest the English taxpayer would have be the one with cap in hand......good job then, when the City was in meltdown, that they had something to sell that could aid increased borrowing!!

[format]

I'm very undecided with this issue - I'm scottish btw.

One thing that really gets me is that with the entirely likely Tory victory next general election, Scotland are almost certainly likely to have next to zero representation in parliament. I'm not in a state to address any other possible problems atm but that highlights a major problem in the current system.

ALso, madduck, why would the OF be funny in the EPL?

[pollaxe]

The Forties and Brent oilfields which did so much to make BP and the British (read English) Government which issued the licences, the money did indeed flow into the City of London. Had Scotland been independent, those oilfields would have been in there territorial waters, they would have had the benefit of all those revenues (Licences\tax\export taxes).

This sounds like the kind of reasoning I've heard before; from Scottish nationalists who want to blame the English for everything that's gone wrong in history.

I'm curious, when do you think would Scotland have had this independence? When did oil become the commodity that ran the industrialised world - long after the Acts of Union which, incidentally, the Scots wanted (and had tried unsuccessfully before to join-up) so both countries could benefit from increased world-wide trade. What came out, as Britain, went on to dominate the world and push the Industrial Revolution. In other words, we were in it together and it benefitted everyone.

If the English hadn't stolen 'your' oil do you think you'd have been able to fight-off the Scandinavians or anyone else who would've fancied taking it? The oilfields were secured by British sovereignty and power, not Scottish, not English. Do you honestly think there would've been a huge Scottish navy capable of securing those oilfields and defending them? I seriously doubt it. The oil doesn't 'belong' to anyone - it's there to be taken by a country or government with the power and money to exploit it and defend it, both legally and by force.

I've seen Alex Salmond's speech about 'the army of occupation' in Scotland and it's bunkum. Jingoistic rhetoric from an anti-English standpoint. The trouble is, people (on both sides of the border) have a very short memory. The fact that we all enjoy the positions we're in today is largely due to the Union that came about. As Britain we consistently punched above our weight.

But it's fine, blame Perfidious Albion for everything and keep throwing stones over the border.

In all honesty, I think most of the arguments about independence are getting worthless anyway. Given the federal juggernaut which is being foisted on us from Europe (and speaking of referendums..) I wonder what sovereign matters will be left to individual countries anyway.

[Bluecube]

It's a moot question these day. The SNP will not give Scotland a referendum ever if they were allowed to because Scotland will say no to independence. It's much the same situation as the British government never having a referendum on Europe simply because the people will not vote the way politicians want them to.

[Saracen]

Well, it's only been a couple of days and the votes so far aren't a huge number, but of the 10% or so that have voted, only 4 claim to be Scottish and all 4 voted no. But five that claim to not be Scottish have voted yes. Still, it's hardly a scientific poll, but it's an insight, I guess.

I have to agree with Bluecube, though - I have my doubts that there'll be a referendum, because I see little sign that the SNP would win it and, as he rightly points out, politicians don't like referenda unless they're sure they'll win.

Being even more cynical, I'd say if there is a referendum, read exactly what the referendum question is very carefully. When Alex Salmond was asked about this the other day, he hedged his answer about exactly what the question would be when asked "Would it be independence, yes or no" to something like (and I don't remember the exact words) "it would be a yes or no question on whether we should negotiate a form of independence".

It may just be my natural cynicism of politicians, but his answer tingled by bullpoop antennae, and made me wonder exactly how he'd angle it if there were to be a referendum, because I;m not convinced it would be a straight question.

So if he doesn't think he can win a referendum on a simple, straight question of full independence (Yes/No), that won't (IMHO) be the question that gets asked. Instead, it'll be the usual political conjuring trick, and I have to wonder if all the enthusiasm for a referendum serves him better as a political slogan than it does as an actual referendum. After all, where does it leave the SNP if he lost a straight yes/no vote?