Gaza aid flotilla to set sail

[Brucelles]

And also, why do all the American and Israeli papers say that 9 people were killed when the organisers say it was at least 19? And the Israeli government has said very little other than that 4 were Turks. How hard is it to confirm the number of dead bodies you are holding?

[TooNice]

It's a bit hard to hide the number of deaths. Israel should be in a better position to do the count if only because they presumably went through the whole ship. Could it be that in this instance, the organisers might have gotten it wrong (BBC says 9, but one passenger said 16 - passengers can't seem to agree)?

[neonplanet40]

I guess its because no one on the boat knows because they were attacked in the middle of the night and had to try and flee for their lives, then they were boarded and hoarded into detention centres like cattle and im sure a lot of them would have been seperated so no one really knows yet what has happened including how many are dead or injured. We should know soon though when all are released.

[nibbler]

My point was more that although israel have clearly acted innapropriately here, I have not heard any mention from them about the holocaust. I might have missed it but it annoys me when people bring up israel's excuse all the time when really they don't use it that often to my knowledge.

[Singh400]

Gaza flotilla raid: 'We heard gunfire – then our ship turned into lake of blood'

Activists aboard Mavi Marmara speak of shock at rapid attacks and deny assaults on Israeli commandos

...

"They said we were terrorists – it was absurd. They came into the part where the women were, lots and lots of them, dressed in black and with gigantic weapons as if they were in a war. They confiscated all of our telephones and all of our luggage and took everything out of the bags and put it on the floor."

"We expected them to shoot people in the legs, to shoot in the air, just to scare people, but they were direct," she said, in a separate interview with the Folha de São Paulo newspaper. "Some of them shot in the passengers' heads. Many people were murdered – it was unimaginable."

The released activists gave varying accounts of the level of resistance mounted by the passengers.

Annette Groth, a German politician, described at a press conference how she had seen Israeli soldiers outside her cabin, after they had stormed the ship.

"They were shooting without warning," she said. "It was like war … They had guns, Taser weapons, some type of teargas and other weaponry, compared to two-and-a-half wooden sticks we had between us. To talk of self-defence is ridiculous."

Footage of the assault shown on Turkish TV and images released by the Israeli military clearly showed some commandos being beaten with sticks by passengers.

However, Paech said he saw no arms being used by the activists. "There were only two men with short sticks but no knives, iron rods, pistols or any real weapons," he said. "Throughout our planning of the mission we said: 'no arms, no explosives', we said we'd only resist politically, with normal means."

An Arab member of the Israeli Knesset, Hanin Zoabi, who was on board the Mavi Marmara, said "not a single passenger …raised a club".

At a press conference in Nazareth, she said: "A clear message was being sent to us, for us to know that our lives were in danger. We were not interested in a confrontation. What we saw was five bodies. There were only civilians and there were no weapons … Israel spoke of a provocation, but there was no provocation."

...

Read the full article here

[JPreston]

Israel is engaged in armed conflict. The blockade is operating within internationally agreed rules - it has been properly announced and communicated, and is (as required) being enforced...

This is all incorrect - even your first sentence; Israel is not at war with Turkey, nor indeed Gaza, or any other state. Israel's stated aim is collective punishment of the citizens of Gaza, in an effort to make them overthrow Hamas. Collective punishment is listed as a war crime under the Geneva Convention (which covers international conflicts that are not declared as war), and to which Israel is a signatory. The blockade is not legal; there are several UN resolutions applying to Israel, including Resolution 1860, which calls for immediate, durable & fully respected ceasefire. A blockade is counter to a ceasefire, and is only legal under International Law in a case of war between states. Actions to mitigate against war crimes are never illegal, by definition.

The fact is that the US will block any attempt to bring Israel to account, and neither country would ever recognise any court examining Israel's actions - thus your peculiar stipulation that the IDF's piracy and murder of Turkish civilians within Turkish jurisdiction must be judged in court before being decried as criminal is entirely moot. By your criteria, any and every action by Israel or the US will always remain legal by simple virtue of the fact that they refuse to recognise the rule of law and have the muscle to act with impunity. An odd definition of legality, I think.

Generalise this incident. Imagine that troops belonging to an unspecified Middle Eastern army attacked a European-flagged aid ship in international waters, killing a number of its crew before impounding the ship and holding approx 600+ civilians hostage, including 41 Britons. I find it very hard to believe that anyone on this forum would not be outraged if the Middle Eastern army was any other than Israel's, and the European flag any other than Turkey's. Why's that then?

[TooNice]

In London, UK Prime Minister David Cameron said Israel's raid was "completely unacceptable" and called for the blockade of Gaza to be lifted.

Well, make it as you will, though it looks like the US is standing alone on this one. Then again, that's adequate, in the same way that China can and does veto sanctions against NK.

[Galant]

How is it that very few details have been released about this and yet you're all able to talk as though you know exactly what happened? If the passengers didn't even know the death toll, and the media all state they are unsure what has happened, how can you all talk so certainly?

Most people don't seem to care one iota about a balanced view of this situation or that of the region in general. Even going so far as comparing Israel to Nazis. Honestly, that's disgusting. That comparison should never be made lightly and yet it flows so easily from some people's tongues.

The reason the UN and others have been slow to act and the reason it is all handled so lightly is because the situation is very complex. Because the history is complicated. Yet so many here talk as though it's so simple.

It seems as though everyone is so eager to tear Israel to pieces, ready to hear the one little thing that can be used to damn them forever. People seem fed up with Israel in a way that they never are with any other nation. Yet if the history is examined it really doesn't take too long to begin to gain an elementary understanding of the two sides and the problems and motives. You begin to see that it is complicated. Yet most here don't seem to care. They just seem to hate Israel.

When I look at all this I can come to a valid possible explanation for Israel's actions and why this could have been a ploy by anti-Israel groups (at worst) or irresponsible foolhardy belligerence (at best) by the activists. Of course, if Israel went in guns blazing then that needs to be dealt with seriously. However, [bold]we do not yet know that[/bold] and most likely wont for quite a while.

I urge all those who claim to have an interest in or feel passionately about this subject to take a look at the whole Israel/Palestine situation and history to get an understanding of the perspectives of both groups and then to use patience and diligence in seeking out the truth and then commenting on these situations from that perspective.

And please, quit making Nazi comparisons. It's inaccurate and cheap and possibly of very bad taste.

[directhex]

How is it that very few details have been released about this and yet you're all able to talk as though you know exactly what happened? If the passengers didn't even know the death toll, and the media all state they are unsure what has happened, how can you all talk so certainly?

Do you really think the passengers were in a situation where they could do a formal head count, whilst the IDF were shooting?

And given the USA is blocking an international inquiry, you have a choice of either believing the reports from those onboard (which are starting to appear), or believing the story from the Israeli Ministry for Foreign Affairs, who are the ones who will run their own internal investigation.

Here's a sneak preview of how that will look: "Our brave soldiers were entirely proportional in their actions".

Are you buying the MFA's "Freedom Flotilla was tied to Al Qaeda" line?

I guess you believed the MFA's "assassinations in Dubai under forged British passports? What're you on about?"

Or the MFA's "White phosphorous? It's just some festive fireworks, to celebrate the happy fun-time visit. We brought cake!"

Or my personal favourite, "what nukes?"

Here's a hint: The Israeli Ministry for Foreign Affairs is as trustworthy as the Iraqi Information Ministry, and any investigation without international involvement should be assumed to be a complete reversal of the truth. The MFA have no credibility. Not a shred.

[neonplanet40]

How is it that very few details have been released about this and yet you're all able to talk as though you know exactly what happened? If the passengers didn't even know the death toll, and the media all state they are unsure what has happened, how can you all talk so certainly?

Most people don't seem to care one iota about a balanced view of this situation or that of the region in general. Even going so far as comparing Israel to Nazis. Honestly, that's disgusting. That comparison should never be made lightly and yet it flows so easily from some people's tongues.

The reason the UN and others have been slow to act and the reason it is all handled so lightly is because the situation is very complex. Because the history is complicated. Yet so many here talk as though it's so simple.

It seems as though everyone is so eager to tear Israel to pieces, ready to hear the one little thing that can be used to damn them forever. People seem fed up with Israel in a way that they never are with any other nation. Yet if the history is examined it really doesn't take too long to begin to gain an elementary understanding of the two sides and the problems and motives. You begin to see that it is complicated. Yet most here don't seem to care. They just seem to hate Israel.

When I look at all this I can come to a valid possible explanation for Israel's actions and why this could have been a ploy by anti-Israel groups (at worst) or irresponsible foolhardy belligerence (at best) by the activists. Of course, if Israel went in guns blazing then that needs to be dealt with seriously. However, [bold]we do not yet know that[/bold] and most likely wont for quite a while.

I urge all those who claim to have an interest in or feel passionately about this subject to take a look at the whole Israel/Palestine situation and history to get an understanding of the perspectives of both groups and then to use patience and diligence in seeking out the truth and then commenting on these situations from that perspective.

And please, quit making Nazi comparisons. It's inaccurate and cheap and possibly of very bad taste.

Your off your hat

We are commmenting on what we know so far and indeed prob the highest extent to what we will truthfully know after Israel and America block the truth from coming out.

I care about a balanced view and I believe I and many others have gave it. Israel boarded a ship in international waters and instead of blowing out propellars and dragging it into custody they instead sent Israeli commandos armed to the teeth unto a boat which was full of people wanting to fix the mess that Israel has created and mantains in Gaza which was bound to cause hostility. Wouldnt you try and protect yourself if soldiers dropped from a helecopter to a boat you were on in the middle of the night with machine guns and opened fire? I know i would and if i had a golf club handy i'd bloody well use it to my advantage before they had a chance to shoot me. Lets remember AT LEAST NINE PEOPLE WERE SHOT DEAD! There is no denying that.

As for the whole nazi-Israel thing - in my opinion of course. You talk about how comparison should never be made etc etc etc.

This is what I am talking about. You mention it and people are like O NO HE DIDNT compare them! But what can I say! I've luckily jsut finished my degree in History and have studied some of the history in the middle east. Not focuysed on Israel though I might add. But some of the things Israel have said and done has strong resemblence to the Nazi's and what they done. I dont use it lightly - It is what it is and im not going to apologise for thinking of it.

What is complex about the situation? Like i said Israel boarded the ship with guns and at least 9 civilians were killed. They could have used other method to acheive the custody of the ship and they chose not too. Thats not complex at all unless your simplistic. What has the history to do with it? Last I seen Turkey was a supporter of Israel and of acheiving peace in the middle east. Yet it was their ship that was boarded. History has no relevance to this particular situation. We are talking about what happened this week not history. Its present tense my friend.

What particular aspect of history are you refferring too? Your full of accusations but your post has no substence which is why i think your off your hat. Hate to be blunt but there it is.

Where in my post did I say I hate Israel? I am not a racist or an anti-semtist. If it was Iran who done this i'd be equally critical so again your post lacks substence and is all about accusations.

You say we dont know that Israel went in guns blazing. What does it matter? They boarded the ship with automatic machine guns which means they were ready to use them. if not they would have had stun guns or riot control guns. I doubt ex mps and nobel prize winners went there to get shot and make a big point.

I urge all those who claim to have an interest in or feel passionately about this subject to take a look at the whole Israel/Palestine situation and history to get an understanding of the perspectives of both groups and then to use patience and diligence in seeking out the truth and then commenting on these situations from that perspective.

And please, quit making Nazi comparisons. It's inaccurate and cheap and possibly of very bad taste.

I have an interest in it but like I said the history has no relevence for what happened this week so stop saying this or at least tell me which particular history you are referring too. You almost sound like a politician becuase you cause more questions than you give answers.

Like I said the Nazi comparisons have been made because they bare resemblence to each other. It may be bad taste in your or other peoples opinion but then again so is shooting civilians for me yet it happens. Also the majority of the history I studied was Naza germany and I find it hard to ignore some of the resemblence. Maybe it is just a coincidence.

So please reply with a more thorough answer addressing all of your accusations please :0

I look forward to reading them.

I apologise for any typos but i'm just home from work and its late!

[TooNice]

Not specific to this thread, but if you want to get more of his point of view, you can find it on this thread: http://forums.hexus.net/question-tim...-israel-2.html

You are right Israel did not employ the most sensible means to resolve the issue. Still, that's how they are known to act, on a scale of 0-10 where zero is resolving an issue through peaceful negotiations, and ten is retaliation via nuke, I'd say that they often lean toward 7.5 (+/- 1).

Knowing that though, and knowing what you are doing is likely not to be well received by Israel (rightly or otherwise), the last thing I would do if I was on the ship is to do something that would give them an excuse to use their automatic rifles on me. And if I was the one ordered to board the ship, and I see someone charge me with a golf club, I would have assessed the best way to defend myself (a strong enough whack can be fatal). That could include shooting them, at least in the legs, if I am already getting hit from two or more sides. Allegedly though, they started with rubber bullets. Oh and to be honest, if I was ordering my troops on the boat, yes, I'd rather them be over-equipped rather than run the risk of being under equipped. Ultimately you can never be 100% sure if there will be at least some people carrying firearms. Again, I agree that there are far more sensible options than to board the ship, but given that they did, the question now is what really happened then?

[neonplanet40]

Im questioning more the fact that they boarded in the first place when they had no need too.

I also think that having MP's and ex nobel prize winners etc was done so that it would be seem more for what it was which was an aid ship. I honestly feel that they protesters thought that having them onboard would get them through or at least stop anything like this happening.

I see what your saying about if your attacked you would maybe shoot. But like i'm saying, Im questioning why they were ever on the ship in the first place. You are correct they do lean more towards the 7.5 and its becuase of this that my sympathy has worn out for them to the point now that they are their own worst enemy.

[TooNice]

No disagreement there.

[directhex]

now that they are their own worst enemy.

Now?

It's their own bloody fault Hamas are in charge in Gaza anyway. Which dumbass decided sidelining Fatah would be good for Israel?

[neonplanet40]

Probably the same 'dumbass' that deicded the best way to fight Hamas was to bomb a country into submission and begin the slow starvation of the populace. Thats one way to reduce anger and create peace. .. . . .Right? . . . .whos with me?

Ok ill get my hat....

[TheAnimus]

That could include shooting them, at least in the legs

No, just like the SBS they will be trained to perform kill shots only. You only fire your rifle if you intend to kill someone, so you do it in the most effective manner.

Oh and to be honest, if I was ordering my troops on the boat, yes, I'd rather them be over-equipped rather than run the risk of being under equipped. Ultimately you can never be 100% sure if there will be at least some people carrying firearms.

They couldn't be 100% sure they didn't have the odd LAW or improvised dirty bomb. Next time they should just use the naval strike option. After-all you wouldn't want to not be sure would you.

Or you could have said they have nobel prize winners, journalists, and just sent aboard the friendly welcome party, heck maybe one or two with side arms, then planted a few ak47s sneakily, some pro-terrorist propaganda and made them look like they are the evil terrorists.