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Thread: Time for some audiophile trolling...

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    HEXUS webmaster Steve's Avatar
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    Time for some audiophile trolling...

    ...because it's Christmas!

    Now I should probably add the disclaimer that the views posted here by me are purely my own and they are opinions, albeit far from humble ones. I don't want any fighting, now... just friendly raging towards other.

    An acquaintance of mine linked to this via G+
    http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html

    Hats off to them for marketing a black box that absorbs electromagnetic radiation. I would love to see what's inside that thing. Seriously, read the lengths that they've gone to do explain the principles behind it. And then there's a demonstration of just how black that box is. Why, it's the blackest thing I've ever seen.

    But of course there's no measurable demonstration of how it in any way improves the actual audio experience... funny, that.

    Let's also examine these bad boys: http://www.lessloss.com/digital-cables-c-70.html

    My favourite bit from the description is the invocation of MATH!
    It is known through math (FFT transforms) that, to transfer a square wave running at 16 MHz, you need to have absolutely controlled electromagnetic circumstances in the surrounding EM field way up into the multi-gigahertz range.
    Except you don't. Well, you can't, because a true square wave consumes infinite bandwidth. Therefore you don't... your wave is more trapezoidal - it has a rise and a fall time, and these have measurable effects and tolerances in the digital world, which is why cables have specifications... meet them and they'll work. Longer cables need tighter specifications because you're exposing yourself to more noise, more signal loss and in high speed transmissions multiple edges on the wire at one time. But come on... 16MHz is a 62.5nS period. You've got at least 10 metres between edges on something like 75Ohm coax.

    So I don't know how you prove that an EM absorbing box is any good or not. The ear doesn't integrate like the eye does, so it's easier to pick up discrepancies. But I suspect the neurologists will be able to tell us what the SNR of the ear and its associated brain functions is. And at that point we can take silly humans with their subjective observations out of the equation and say, even if there was a difference, that it wouldn't be perceptible because it's far below anything we can hear... assuming there is any kind of difference, other than the contents of the room having changed slightly.

    As for digital cables, well that's easy. The easiest one is to tx/rx some audio over a bunch of different cables. If the raw audio at destination is the same as at source... hooray. Observing the behaviour of different cables with an oscilloscope would be fun too, but ultimately who cares what the scope says if the audio was bit-perfect? I guess you could probably conjecture some sort of bit-error rate from the scope observations. That'd be fun.

    I guess my last bit of advice would be, if you're planning on spending more than £15 on less than 5 metres of cable, you should probably be giving that money to charity instead - it's money infinitely better spent, with a more tangible, longer lasting boost to your sense of decency.

    Hooray, rant over!
    Last edited by Steve; 28-12-2011 at 01:16 PM.
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    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...





    I'm not really a huge audiophile to be honest but I completely get where you're coming from. As a guitarist people are constantly trying to sell me on ideas like this so I can "sound like my heroes" when in reality my heroes plugged a guitar into a big amp via a home made pedal from someone like Roger Mayer and then whacked the volume to 11. They never touched a diamond encrusted, angel tear infused Klotz cable in their life

    I came to the conclusion long ago that a grands worth of high end digital gear and shielded cables still doesn't sound as good as a cheap record deck going into half a dozen valves anyway. The human ear likes a little imperfection

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    Raging Bull DeludedGuy's Avatar
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Excellent post and its exactly how I feel about this sort of thing...

    I have what I think is a decent sound system at home, decent Sony AV, Tannoy Speakers, BK Gemini II subwoofer with some decent cables (£25 for 30 meters of copper), cost me under £800 for the whole lot. My audiophile friend who is a part time wannabe musician has spent at least £3000 in his 7.1 audio system, sure his stuff sounds a bit louder, but I cant tell if its any clearer than my setup, he seems to think it is, or maybe he is just trying to justify the money he spent, probably the latter.

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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Audiophile rules.

    Cables must be of good quality and well terminated.
    Longer runs of cables require a better quality of cable.
    System should be matched, ie no 20 quid cd player with 10k amp.
    Room dimensions and acoustics are just important as the kit you buy.

    The rest is snake oil.

    Benchmark DAC1 feeding a Krell KSA100 into B&W 805s and a rell strata III.

    Total cable costs ~80 quid

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    Pseudo-Mad Scientist Whiternoise's Avatar
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Dave Jones has a good rant on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4

    http://www.lessloss.com/firewall-p-196.html that's my favourite - what difference does it make if you filter the power a little bit before it goes into the power supply

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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Well, I got ok hearing, nothing fantastic, definitely damaged slightly from years of Heavy Metal and working on phones, but not everyone does.

    There are some folks out there with truly wonderful hearing I have no doubt. Folks who will pick out the difference between using cable a and cable b on the same system. I don't think I am one of them. I tend to buy mid range cabling, lately using the cable package that came supplied with my system (separate cable package, not bell wire), splashing out a bit more for HDMI on the 3D stuff.

    I personally, have enough difficulty with the settings on my amp atm, working out if DTS is better than THX cinema, or if DTS 6 is better than that, and what the hell does Direct actually mean? I tend to bump the sound up, raise the levels on the center channel so the dialogue is clear and sit back and enjoy. When it comes to music i set it to multichannel stereo (this is probably some kind of crime, but when you are at a concert the band and speakers are in front of you.......).

    I remember a test a while back on The Gadget Show, where they went to Linn Hifi's testing room, and they blindfolded the subject. They then had a system play, a guy sing and another system play, and the subject had to guess which was which. He identified the guy singing easily enough, but raved over the quality of the more expensive system, which I think was in the region of £75k iirc.

    had the guy sing at his wedding too
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dareos View Post
    Well, I got ok hearing, nothing fantastic, definitely damaged slightly from years of Heavy Metal and working on phones, but not everyone does.

    There are some folks out there with truly wonderful hearing I have no doubt. Folks who will pick out the difference between using cable a and cable b on the same system. I don't think I am one of them. I tend to buy mid range cabling, lately using the cable package that came supplied with my system (separate cable package, not bell wire), splashing out a bit more for HDMI on the 3D stuff.
    ...
    I go the other way. Digital cables I buy cheap; if I need a long cable then I might buy a better cable. Analog / Speaker cable I might spend a bit more on, depending on purpose and length.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dareos View Post
    ... sit back and enjoy. ...
    I think this is the most important bit.

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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Few more points to remember.

    1) For optimum listening let your equipment 'warm up'
    2) After 2-3 g'n'ts, just enjoy the damn music.

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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    I too love the valve sound. They sound so natural. I don't (yet) spend a lot on my audio equipment but I recently got a decent pair of headphones and am now in the annoying position of my headphones sounding better then my hifi/home cinema setup.

    Having retired the valve amp, I have a Yamaha DSP-A5 driving Eltax Symphony 8.2s and mission speakers for the other 3 (no sub). The Eltax are OK but nothing special and the next thing I'm going to upgrade - they're good for films but not so much for music. My cables are nothing special with optical running to the amp and basic/reasonable speaker wires.

    Could anyone recommend some good speakers to look out for second hand, or even new, in the £200 - 500 range roughly? Floor standers would be preferred and they would be the main 2 channels. I'm sure there is a lot out there but I'm after a bargain.

    Also I have good high frequency hearing so would some ribbon tweeters be in my price range?
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    Comfortably Numb directhex's Avatar
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...


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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    OK so its tuned for audio that the eye can see...


    and will probably give you brain cancer to boot,,

    yeah great idea!

    and the guys so clever he has to use a picture for bold text as he cant code!

    probably a box of sand.

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    HEXUS webmaster Steve's Avatar
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Quote Originally Posted by abaxas View Post
    Room dimensions and acoustics are just important as the kit you buy.
    Yes! Once you've spent a couple of hundred quid on speakers (or perhaps more if it's surround sound), there's really no point spending any more money if you're room is wrong. For example my living room is an 'L' shape... not worth me getting surround sound given where the telly is situated.
    Quote Originally Posted by abaxas View Post
    Few more points to remember.

    1) For optimum listening let your equipment 'warm up'
    2) After 2-3 g'n'ts, just enjoy the damn music.
    Ah yes, this too. Sit down, stop fiddling, and enjoy.

    Also I liked directhex's link and the notion that it's impossible to perfectly recreate a recording so why bother trying. More to the point, it's impossible to create a perfect recording of a performance in the first instance. Secondly, unless you go and sit in the studio it was produced in there's simply no way you can hear it exactly how the producer did.

    I like the notion of valve amps having a different, warmer sound to them... I'm fine with that as it's a different means of driving your speakers with different power characteristics. Although I do think people get taken for a ride a bit with the price of them. Seeing as there is actually a difference, though, I guess it's down to whether you consider it worth it. "Cheap" vs "expensive" valve amp would be an interesting double-blind test.
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    For example my living room is an 'L' shape... not worth me getting surround sound given where the telly is situated.Ah yes, this too. Sit down, stop fiddling, and enjoy.
    Something that drives me nuts: People that spend a small fortune on a surround setup and then put the speakers at seamingly random points around the room with the TV stuffed in the corner.

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Ah, the joys of audiophily I'm definitely not an audiophile (despite being a putative sound-tech), and the exact quality of the reproduction is generally irrelevant to my enjoyment of music I'm listening to (certainly it's much less important than the actual music I'm listening to ), but there's nothing that quite matches the joy of hearing a familiar song through a better-than-usual amplification system.

    Why is that relevant? I've just spent some savings on new speakers and bits for my PA rig, planning to hire myself out to bands that are starting up and haven't got their own kit yet, and to test my new speakers - and these are just £80 basic PA speakers, nothing fancy - I hooked up my O2X's headphone out to the line input of my PA amp (an aging Fender 1506), connected up my speakers (with a couple of 3 metre guitar leads, shockingly!) and fired up some Natalie Imbruglia. And almost wept at the quality of the sound.

    Needless to say, those speakers may be the best £120 (I got them reduced on clearance ) I've ever spent. I don't think I'll be getting a little black box to go with them though (unless you count the DI boxes I'll need for my rig )...

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    Oh Crumbs.... Biscuit's Avatar
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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    Part of what i do for a living is build recording studios for broadcast and education, a lot of what i read as 'audiophile' translates out as 'complete bollocks'.

    I dont buy cables i just grab off cuts from work. We never use anything fancy really, even for long distances, the main difference being its balanced (both AES and Analogue). We usually use multicore with 10-20 pairs and terminate it on at least one krone block. Jumper between blocks yet more cheap nasty wire) to make connection between equipment. So if the people creating the media use this kind of stuff then why would you need mega equipment at home?

    Its all nonesense
    Last edited by Biscuit; 29-12-2011 at 05:33 PM.

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    Re: Time for some audiophile trolling...

    I believe the expression goes something like "a fool and their money..."

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