Plight of Palestinian families in exile

[AD-15]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa0yu...6&feature=plcp

When we hear in the news of violent atrocities inflicted upon the Palestinian people, the pro-Israeli camp often attempt to justify such actions with accusations of Palestinian terrorism, weapons smuggling, stone throwing, etc etc. The picture put forward by such people is often one of the state of Israel having its hand forced against the Palestinians, and that it has genuine security concerns.

Whether such claims are true or not, it is most often the case that, when judging such situations, we are ignorant (or simply choose to ignore) of the bigger picture. That of the suffering and plight of the Palestinian people as a whole over the many decades this conflict has persisted. We do not consider the gradual erosion of rights that has become the norm, or the mass forced dispossession of land and property that occurred in 1948 (and again in 1967). Most importantly, we do not appreciate the impact this must have had on the emotions, psyche and cultural memory of the Palestinian people as a whole.

How many of us have heard of the term "Nakba"? The arabic term, meaning "catastrophe", referring to the huge exodus of Palestinians from their land towards the beginning of this conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

Compare that to the number of us who know, in detail, of the Jewish Holocaust. Please note, I in no way wish to diminish the suffering of those involved in the tragic crime that is the Holocaust, but merely hope to point out the relative ignorance of what is often referred to as the "Palestinian Holocaust" when the Jewish Holocaust is so often (and wrongly) used to justify what has happened to the Palestinian people.

I hope the video linked above goes some way to explaining the emotional loss inflicted upon the Palestinians.

From the Late Bertrand Russell:

Lord Bertrand Russell addressing an international conference in 1970, wrote the following:

"The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was ‘given’ by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East".

"Message from Bertrand Russell to the International Conference of Parlimentarians in Cairo, February 1970." Reprinted in The New York Times, Feb. 23, 1970.

[chuckskull]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3A6_qSBBQ A POV from the other side.

[TeePee]

I enjoyed the music on that last video. Very cheery!

[zoomee]

nice post AD-15. I'm glad to see organisations like the scottish spsc highlighting the palestinian 'cause' to the public.

unfortuantely one of the big problems is our media here in the western countries seems more devoted to portraying the jewish holocaust in all its 'glory' rather than the modern day holocaust which is taking place in front of our own eyes in our own era.

Unfortuantely due to the jewish holocaust most media companies and individuals are too scared to mention the plight of the Palestinians, due to the new fashion called "Anti-semitism".

[AD-15]

Indeed. At any other time and with any other people not a soul would accept a situation like the one we have today.

I find despicable the idea that anyone can condone the mass expulsion of a native people from their land to make room for foreign settlers, or for the remaining to continually be forced to accept the brutality and erosion of rights that is the reality of the occupation.

No people in history have been forced to endure, with so little support, the loss the Palestinians have experienced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3A6_qSBBQ A POV from the other side.

Give me a break...

What gives anyone the right to demand land that isn't theirs, and especially at the expense of the native people, on the basis of religion and previous discrimination in a completely different part of the world?

What gives anyone the right to demand refugees settle for anything less than their own homes and land? To compromise by settling in another country?

[chuckskull]

You're totally right, lets put al the Arabs back in Arabia and all the Jews back in Judea and everyone will be happy right? Oh wait...

Pick which argument you're having, if about 'stealing' land, then you're better off aiming your anger at the British Government and UN(or any one of the other regimes/groups that have conquered/stolen it over the last 6000 years). If it's about the suffering of people on the ground then again your anger would be better directed at the Israel's Arab neighbours who cause the Palestinians far more death and suffering than Israel simply to further their political points. The only holocaust in the middle east is being committed by Arabs upon other Arabs.

For all Israel's flaws and over zealous often ham fisted attempts at self defence. Their response to the threats they face is, is little different to other nations when they are threatened, particularly ours and they make a constant effort to negotiate a peace with an enemy bent on their genocide. Regularly agreeing to over 95% of the demands made of them. The Israeli government has never called for the total destruction of all Arab Muslims, almost every Palestian and Arab leader has called for the total destruction of the Jews and before you start, has done since the 40's and before, going back thousands of years, if you want to go to that ridiculous level before Israel had done anything to 'provoke' it.

Never forget the basic facts of this conflict, if the Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace, if the Jew's lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

Why do you constantly assert that Arabs have the right to live on their ancestral homelands, while Jew's do not? In fact you're asserting that they don't even have the right to live on 0.5% of their ancestral homeland. Even that tiny part they are willing to share, giving peaceful Arabs full democratic rights, but you obviously believe Israel doesn't even have the right to exist so I'm wasting my breath.

[peterb]

No people in history have been forced to endure, with so little support, the loss the Palestinians have experienced.

Except possibly Jews in Europe for several centuries.

Anti-semitism is not new, Some of Sakespeare's work is anti-semitic, refelecting the times in which he lived, and Jewish people have beenpersecuted long before the 1930s.

[AD-15]

You're totally right, lets put al the Arabs back in Arabia and all the Jews back in Judea and everyone will be happy right? Oh wait...

And there's the crucial point...

You do realise "Arab" is an ethnicity, and Judaism is a religion...?

The vast majority of settlers in what is now Israel have absolutely no connection to that land, other than that they (somewhat) follow the same religion as those who lived there thousands of years ago. Those same people by the way, form a significant proportion of the ancestors to those people expelled from the land 60+ years ago. It's a well known fact that today's Arabs are basically a mix of descendants from the old civilisations that thrived on the peninsula, including the original semites.

So a Palestinian whose family has lived in Palestine for many generations is not permitted to return to his home. Yet I could be a British Jew with absolutely no connection to that place whatsoever and still be able to pack up and go over there whenever the heck I'd like. How is that justice?

Since when was scripture a legitimate excuse for theft of someone else's home?

Pick which argument you're having, if about 'stealing' land, then you're better off aiming your anger at the British Government and UN(or any one of the other regimes/groups that have conquered/stolen it over the last 6000 years).

It doesn't matter who; what matter is the Palestinians were wronged and the world allows it to continue to this day.

If it's about the suffering of people on the ground then again your anger would be better directed at the Israel's Arab neighbours who cause the Palestinians far more death and suffering than Israel simply to further their political points. The only holocaust in the middle east is being committed by Arabs upon other Arabs.

Surely you don't actually believe that?

I'm sorry, but it's just one of the most absurd things I've ever read in support of Israel's actions...

How does anything Arab leaders have inflicted on the Palestinians come even close to Israel's brutality? Constant evictions? Confiscation of land and resources? Erosion of basic human rights anyone else in the world would take for granted? Targetting of innocent civilians and civilian establishments during armed conflict?

For all Israel's flaws and over zealous often ham fisted attempts at self defence. Their response to the threats they face is, is little different to other nations when they are threatened, particularly ours and they make a constant effort to negotiate a peace with an enemy bent on their genocide.

You do realise that it is often the Israeli side that ends up sabotaging negotiations through a refusal to budge on points that are even pushed by it's most absurdly staunch ally, the US?

Regularly agreeing to over 95% of the demands made of them.

Again, this claim simply leaves me speechless!

The Israeli government has never called for the total destruction of all Arab Muslims

They don't have to. They are already systematically cleansing that area of the natives who were there long before they were.

almost every Palestian and Arab leader has called for the total destruction of the Jews and before you start, has done since the 40's and before, going back thousands of years, if you want to go to that ridiculous level before Israel had done anything to 'provoke' it.

No offense, but I sincerely find it more and more difficult to take this seriously. It may be the image that Israeli propagandists like to plant in your head, but that certainly does not make it true.

Maybe some leaders have called for the dismantlement of the Israeli state (although you must be well aware of the fact that there are also some who are content with a two state solution), that certainly does not imply the "destruction" nor the expulsion of any Jew that has settled in Palestine.

Never forget the basic facts of this conflict, if the Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace, if the Jew's lay down their weapons there will be genocide.

Right...

Why do you constantly assert that Arabs have the right to live on their ancestral homelands, while Jew's do not?

Because Arabs have ancestral homelands, being an ethnicity. Jews do not, simply on basis of religion anyway.

You are aware that there were plenty of Palestinian Jews before Israel was established, right?

Why is it people such as yourself constantly assert this bizarre equivalence of religion and ethnicity?

A Palestinian has a right to his land because he actually lived there, and his family before him for many generations. A Jew does not have right to land there simply because he identifies with the religion followed by those in Palestine thousands of years ago. I hope that is clear.

In fact you're asserting that they don't even have the right to live on 0.5% of their ancestral homeland.

Not entirely sure how you can claim that, since 200x Israel's current land area gives you an area greater than half of Europe...

But that's irrelevant, not a single Jew, or non-Jew, has the right to live on 0.0000000000000001% of Palestine, or any land in the world, purely on the assumption that he observes the same religious beliefs as someone who is believed to have lived on that same land thousands of years ago.

I'm sure you can imagine the chaotic situation we would have if we could claim land, expelling the native inhabitants, simply based on our religious beliefs.

Of course, the world wouldn't allow any such situation to exist. Yet an exception was made for the Zionists and Palestine. Which is why I assert that no people have been put through the same misery as the Palestinians have been forced to endure.

[AD-15]

Except possibly Jews in Europe for several centuries.

And why should Palestinians in Palestine be made to pay for the crimes of people in Europe against European Jews?

[blueball]

Here is my overly simplified take on things:

There are good and bad Israelis
There are good and bad Palestinians
The bad Israelis kill good Palestinians
The bad Palestinians kill good Israelis

rinse and repeat ad nauseum

[peterb]

And why should Palestinians in Palestine be made to pay for the crimes of people in Europe against European Jews?

I didn't say they did. I was challenging your assertion that Palestinians are the most persected people in history.

[AD-15]

Fair enough, although I didn't quite say that. I said (and you quoted):

No people in history have been forced to endure, with so little support, the loss the Palestinians have experienced.

That's not really the same thing.

The difference here is, despite the treatment of the Palestinians having continued like this for over 60 years, on a huge scale, it is still the case a significant proportion of people support their continued exile and humiliation.

The crucial point is, the world allows this situation to continue. There is little in the way of significant support for the Palestinians, little that is being done to solve their situation.

No people in history has been expected to put up with the same harsh reality as the Palestinians.

[blueball]

No people in history has been expected to put up with the same harsh reality as the Palestinians.

What about the North American Indian?

[redddraggon]

The crucial point is, the world allows this situation to continue. There is little in the way of significant support for the Palestinians, little that is being done to solve their situation.

Perhaps their brothers and sisters in the neighbouring countries could step up to the plate and help their Palestinian brethen out, rather than use them for an excuse for all their Israel hate.

[peterb]

The thread has been closed following some posts that were deemed unacceptable and we co not wish to risk inflammatory comments escalating.

This is an emotive topic where there are rights and wrongs on both sides, as has been argued in other threads on the same topic.

[peterb]

OK - now that there has been a cooling down period, I am re-opening the thread to allow the discussion to continue. However, if the discussion starts to get out of hand again, it will be closed - permanently. I'm sure all members are aware of the rules about abusive comments. If not read this.