Doctors Strike

[santa claus]

OK bit of a Rant!...etc

This post doesn't reflect the usual standard of your contributions. You are grinding a personal axe and it has clouded your judgement.

Doctors do "earn a fair whack" with the emphasis on the word "earn". Think about it; Doctors are amongst the most rational, intelligent, hard-working, public-spirited contributors you will find in this Country (or anywhere for that matter) and yet they feel their only remaining option is to strike? Something is desperately wrong and it isn't the attitude of Doctors.

Noone requiring urgent treatment will be affected by the strike; that pledge has been made by the very people you're taking a swipe at. Meanwhile, the true villains, as mentioned already in this thread, have manipulated the talking point away from their mis-deeds.

Just how much longer will we be this gullible?

[Zak33]

/\ top post

[Hicks12]

[snip]
now.....my main man Gerrard has a good point



while this seems ... hard to put together, it's true. We ALL Live longer now and Doctors DO have to work for longer... and they also have more toys to play with, more skills to learn, more way to save people from dying now.. putting it off as peterb states.. and it ALL COSTS MONEY.

Lets face it.. if we had less multi million pound machines in hospitals,... less multi million pound drug programs to sustain people from dieases which 20 yeara ago killed people... ... we'd let some people die... but employ many many other nurses, have more hosiptals with shorter waiting lists to tell people they were on borrowed time.... with the extra dough... no?

what I imply is.. we will never EVER have enough money, becase with money comes research, medicene and better procedure, and more people will live to be il next year.

or am I wrong?

I find it as a self sustaining (in a vague way), specifically that if the doctors didnt have the skills and the kit/tech todo these amazing operations well they would also slow down their improvements/developments. Again specifically for me, my dad is actually project leader/designer/engineer on a major scanning sensor that can basically do all these fancy indepth scans without probes and is extremely portable along with costs about 10x less than currently, passed clinical trials on the NHS and is due in the next couple of years which will save the public a fair bob after awhile while saving lives. If these doctors didnt have great stuff already then people like my dad would not be able to finish improving.


Basically, Doctors can strike as any other person can we are in bad times but I personally think its more along the line of the media twisting facts and blending it between a lie and the truth, all to get more money for themselves, basically having a strike themselves but its creating a storm and is bad news!.

[roachcoach]

For me, it is a symptom of a wider issue.

These changes aren't being made out of spite, these changes are being made because there is not enough money.

I concede, I've not followed it closely so keep that in mind with the rest of the following. I'm quite willing to be corrected.

I've not seen a single group from binmen to doctors offer a sustainable solution. It appears to be a case of "but that's not fair". I agree, it's not entirely fair, but the kicker is there is no money. Fair doesnt even get a look in.

It very much reminds me of situations of having to tell the kids they can't get something because we can't afford it. They don't like it and I don't like it, but damnit the reality is just that: Reality. Not to say these guys are children in any derogatory sense, but to convey the regret of telling people you know and value they just can't have what they want, even though they are probably deserving of it. Doesnt matter how deserving people are, if you can't pay for it, (short of stealing) you can't get it.

Striking will sure get the point across, but it won't get passed the much larger elephant in the room of financing the request/demand (delete per political slant).

[csgohan4]

To be honest striking will in real times mean nothing and the tabloids will stamp all over them. The government will seem to be the good guy by the media not succumbing to their overpaid demands and all will be forgotton and the Governmenr will still have their way. Santa Claus is correct that Urgent treatment will not be affected, and hence Doctors strike tend not be noticed as compared to tube strikes or haulers striking against high fuel costs. Disruption is not big enough nor would they want it to be out of duty and morality. Hence they are in a difficult position really, which is why some doctors have voted not to strike due to the nature of the above points.

In regards to the NHS, you can pour as much money as you can and it still won't be enough. Because there are so many drugs, treatments and endless needs. In all honesty, red tape and pencil pushers should be the first ones to go rather than front line staff. I have more respect for nursing staff, the amount of stick they get. Long hours, poor support, abuse from patients, and they take the brunt of losing jobs.

The strikes are not just for getting a better deal for Doctors, it for all medical professionals, they all get the same NHS Pension which is catergorised to type of staff, but the basis on which they work out the pensions remains the same.

In addition to the strikes, the OP mentioned it is selfish to strike, well you could argue that we all should be in it together as it's the recession. But at what point do you fight for your rights when everyone else fights and gets better deals? recession or boom otherwise

If you look at the pension scheme here the Pension scheme is alot watered down. Firstly the change to Consumer price index from Retail price index thereby reducing value or pensions, again no enagement with NHS staff. The pension scheme was based on Final year salary not career earnings. Not every Doctor earns 100,000 when they retire nor do they or ever have a career average of 100,000.

To get rid of MYTHS, Consultants DO NOT EARN 100,000 when they start out, They ear around 60,000 as a 1st year consultant before tax and then get increments every year of around 1-2 K depending on speciality.

So the only way to get a good pension is try and work as long as possible to get large enough final year salaary. Now that the Government has changed this, the pension is worth significantly less as the basis for the equation is on the average you earn, thereby saving money for the Government. Shameful really.



It's like buying a retailer branded PSU with 2 years warranty. Your PSU breaks after 1 year, but the retailer tells you sorry, the terms and conditions have changed, only 1 year warranty, so your stuffed. There's absolutely nothing you can do to change this.

Remember the Media are there purely to skew things and sell papers. Also remember the Government changed the pension BEFORE THE BANKING CRISIS

Pensions are more important than Pay, you can strike for your 1.4% increase in pay, but if you getting screwed on your pension, that 1.4% will do zip to compensate. The government give with one hand and take more with the other.

I hope you all understand why Doctors have striked on this and appreciate it isn't an attack on patients, rather the pencil pushers at Westminister. Ultimately it will lead to nothing and the Morale of the NHS Staff will be plunged deeper.

[HalloweenJack]

Remember the Media are there purely to skew things and sell papers.

^^ or hack phones and give hope to parents of murdered school girls....

seriously though , doctors do `private work` to earn good money then do real work in hospitals

[csgohan4]

^^ or hack phones and give hope to parents of murdered school girls....


seriously though , doctors do `private work` to earn good money then do real work in hospitals

Private practice is not counted as part of NHS pensions contributions, not every speciality can do Private Practice for e.g Paediatricians, microbiologists. Surgeons have better scope for private practice. Bare in mind it take alot of time and effort to become a surgeon. They have to do a Master/PHD before being considered for a Consultant post and they train the longest than everyone else, more than 10 years after leaving medical school.

In addition, of course Private practice you earn more than NHS, why do you think it's private and why people want to do it and want to go Private Healthcare

[OilSheikh]

< snip >

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I have not been following the news recently,but is this doctors at hospitals and GPs?? GPs and dentists tend to do more defined hours than people working in hospitals(I know GPs can be on call too) and get paid a relatively decent amount too.

Also,the time it takes to get the proper qualifications and experience to become a consultant,probably means you will be in your thirties.

So you are loosing years of earning potential too,which is one of the other reasons why the pay is better too.

The problem is that in many sectors dependent on government funding(like medicine,emergency services and even research) people have already been working very long hours,for pay which is under what you would get privately. The better pensions and higher permanancy of the jobs,were seen as a compensation to this. However,with both of these starting to disappear,and probably move more towards what you see in the private sector,but,without the pay, I don't know if this is going to be sustainable in the long run.

[santa claus]

It very much reminds me of situations of having to tell the kids they can't get something because we can't afford it. They don't like it and I don't like it, but damnit the reality is just that: Reality. Not to say these guys are children in any derogatory sense, but to convey the regret of telling people you know and value they just can't have what they want, even though they are probably deserving of it. Doesnt matter how deserving people are, if you can't pay for it, (short of stealing) you can't get it.

Striking will sure get the point across, but it won't get passed the much larger elephant in the room of financing the request/demand (delete per political slant).

Oh I dunno, perhaps a more accurate description would be that you tell one of your kids they can't have something because you can't afford it but at the same time you give your other kids all the things they want (even though they've been naughty). Sharing a reduction should be more fairly distributed.

If there's an elephant in the room, those who brought the circus to town are responsible.

[Agent]

For me, it is a symptom of a wider issue.

These changes aren't being made out of spite, these changes are being made because there is not enough money......

I just don't buy this for the most part.

The excuse of not being enough money is one that keeps being thrown about by the media, but they keep missing one crucial point with it: The big companies keep getting away with massive tax evasion and being 'let off' when they make mistakes.

The distribution of wealth is screwed and in this case, some of the most hardworking and taken advantage of people are getting the brunt of it.

The last doctors strike was 37 years ago. The previous time the ATL went on strike? Never - it only recently did so in it's 127 year history.

Here is a thought for you: Take all the doctors and get them to do their required hours. No overtime at all...and then employ more staff to make up the required difference. How much do you think that would cost the UK?...training, wages, pensions and so on....More than the pension difference we are talking about?

The situation is already dire. Take this for example.

Some doctors in the region’s A&E units are averaging 90 minutes of overtime per shift, the Telegraph has learned.

However, they are not paid for the extra work or given time in lieu because that would force the NHS to admit that staff are routinely breaching the EU working time directive.

An hour and a half every shift, when you could be making life and death decisions isn't short. And if they get it wrong while trying their best? Straight in front of a medical tribunal worrying about being struck off, losing your job (and consequently probably your house) and maybe never working in the profession again, all while being lambasted by the media for failing us while these people are exhausted due to a system which abuses them.

And after all that hard work they get told they can't have any of that time in lieu because they'd be admitting there is a problem.....crazy, just utter crazy.

This isn't limited to one area either and can be found country wide.

So, money....It wasn't that long ago that Vodafone were 'let off' out of paying 6 Billion Pounds, while many of the large companies are using elaborate tax haven settings to evade scandalous amounts of tax. Oh, and if you try to expose any of these from the inside, expect for the documents to get banned....while you then lose your job.

If you want to talk about money, all of these lot are fair game.

So you're right, there is a wider issue here, it's just not the one you're claiming about "there is not enough money". It's that the money is being kept by the people at the top, while the media makes apparently intelligent people think there is actually a problem with those that have spent endless hours training, along with massive overtime and all the issues above.

I'm fully aware that I'm getting close to evoking godwins law, but there is a fantastic quote by Hermann Göring:

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Right now we're in danger from Doctors and Teachers. Attack them, blame their pay, ignore their hours and any working issues they have. If they don't cave in, they are inconsiderate and are putting the UK in danger of 'economic recovery'. You don't get their wages, so why should they?

We're going daft as a nation, fed by corrupt news organisations at every stage.

[roachcoach]

Oh I dunno, perhaps a more accurate description would be that you tell one of your kids they can't have something because you can't afford it but at the same time you give your other kids all the things they want (even though they've been naughty). Sharing a reduction should be more fairly distributed.

If there's an elephant in the room, those who brought the circus to town are responsible.

Indeed, but pretty much everyone did have a hand in bringing said circus, if I'm not mistaken.



Edit:

@Agent. Yes, there are lots of massive problems, but stamping feet and shouting without providing a sustainable alternate is, unfortunately, not going to achieve much

[csgohan4]

I have not been following the news recently,but is this doctors at hospitals and GPs?? GPs and dentists tend to do more defined hours than people working in hospitals(I know GPs can be on call too) and get paid a relatively decent amount too.

Also,the time it takes to get the proper qualifications and experience to become a consultant,probably means you will be in your thirties.

So you are loosing years of earning potential too,which is one of the other reasons why the pay is better too.

The problem is that in many sectors dependent on government funding(like medicine and even research) people have already been working very long hours,for pay which is under what you would get privately. The better pensions and higher permanancy of the jobs,were seen as a compensation to this. However,with both of these starting to disappear,and probably move more towards what you see in the private sector,but,without the pay, I don't know if this is going to be sustainable in the long run.

Gp's and dentists do much less hours than Hospital doctors. Gp's don't do night shifts or rather don't have to, so you get lots of Locum GP's filling in the void, mostly European doctors who unfortunately have been in the news for the wrong reasons. However you cannot compare dentists here, they are mostly private nor are part of OP's original discussion.

Cosultants wise, more like late 30's early 40's.

Most of the Doctors in the UK are rubbish. This may be because of the skills shortage we had sometime ago and a lot of the so-called Doctors from Asia and Africa came here on HSMP visas. They weren't qualified Doctors and most likely had dodogy certificates. so, this decreased the quality of the Doctors' workforce. to maintain the quantity.

Mom had an operation few years ago and the Surgeons "accidentally" left cleaning sponge inside her and stitched her up. She had to go for a 2nd surgery!

This is a bit of a general blanket assumption and can be construed as racist. Not all Non British Doctors are bad. Nor all Doctors' are Robots, they are all humans, they can make mistakes that you or I can do. Doctors unfortunately are not remembered for what they do best, but rather what their mistakes are. They don't get a simple thank you from patients or colleagues alike, or rather 'it's your job' attitude. Simply no appreciation nor morale in the NHS. Driven by ever unrealistic demands from a Free NHS and expecting a private service. Just because something bad happens, doesn't mean it will happen again nor a reflection of the whole profession.

I'm sure that surgeon was disciplined or at least been told about his error, but through his error are you going to blame the doctors taking care of your sick children or your relatives being treated for breast cancer or the foreign Doctors who I have seen a few to be excellent and harder working than their British Counterparts.

In addition to Foreign Doctors, they all have to do what's called a PLAB which is a medical exam for all NON E.U doctors to which they must pass. I think it's the E.U non English Doctors you have to worry about as they don't need to prove their skills nor grasp of Language through this exam, just producing their medical certficates to the GMC.



Its like knowing your Custom build system was done by a person from *Insert nationality*, and it breaks down in 1 week, therefore all people from that nationlaity are bad??? what kind of statement is that?

[csgohan4]

Right now we're in danger from Doctors and Teachers. Attack them, blame their pay, ignore their hours and any working issues they have. If they don't cave in, they are inconsiderate and are putting the UK in danger of 'economic recovery'. You don't get their wages, so why should they?

We're going daft as a nation, fed by corrupt news organisations at every stage.

You put the point Across in Two Lines well Agent. Just because you don't get their wages doesn't mean they shouldn't fight for their rights. You should put yourselves in their positions or rather, if your boss changes your pension rules, and not for the first time, and doesn't engage nor compensate you, you going to grit your teeth and leave it?

By the way even if the UK had recovered billions in lost tax e.t.c, I highly suspect we would still be in the same situation with medical Staff being screwed as no amount of money will satisfy the Whitehall Coffers.

@Agent. Yes, there are lots of massive problems, but stamping feet and shouting without providing a sustainable alternate is, unfortunately, not going to achieve much

They've been stamping their feet for years and Governments past and present have had time and man power to think of a solution and yet haven't. Doctors are doctors not economists. That's the Government's job which incidently involves changing things even before the recession took hold years ago

[Agent]

@Agent. Yes, there are lots of massive problems, but stamping feet and shouting without providing a sustainable alternate is, unfortunately, not going to achieve much

But they could be sustainable, if we started taking the money from the people we are supposed to. Doctors have a dam right to stamp their feet right now. They didn't start this mess and shouldn't take the brunt for it.

Seems that we can "reform" everything in this country right now...apart from Westminster.

Don't forget that the pensions were already renegotiated in 2008. They are trying to rewrite the contract again.

Oh....and about that 50p tax rate cut.....is there anyone apart from the rich this government hasn't managed to piss off?

The bankers bonus tax has been abolished, profits from foreign subsidiaries are exempt from tax (IIRC) and corporation tax has been reduced.

That's sustainability right there.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Gp's and dentists do much less hours than Hospital doctors. Gp's don't do night shifts or rather don't have to, so you get lots of Locum GP's filling in the void, mostly European doctors who unfortunately have been in the news for the wrong reasons. However you cannot compare dentists here, they are mostly private nor are part of OP's original discussion.

Cosultants wise, more like late 30's early 40's.



This is a bit of a general blanket assumption and can be construed as racist. Not all Non British Doctors are bad. Nor all Doctors' are Robots, they are all humans, they can make mistakes that you or I can do. Doctors unfortunately are not remembered for what they do best, but rather what their mistakes are. They don't get a simple thank you from patients or colleagues alike, or rather 'it's your job' attitude. Simply no appreciation nor morale in the NHS. Driven by ever unrealistic demands from a Free NHS and expecting a private service. Just because something bad happens, doesn't mean it will happen again nor a reflection of the whole profession.

I'm sure that surgeon was disciplined aor at least been told about his error, but through his error are you going to blame the doctors taking care of your sick children or your relatives being treated for breast cancer or the foreign Doctors who I have seen a few to be excellent and harder working than their British Counterparts.

In addition to Foreign Doctors, they all have to do what's called a PLAB which is a medical exam for all NON E.U doctors to which they must pass. I think it's the E.U non English Doctors you have to worry about as they don't need to prove their skills nor grasp of Language through this exam, just producing their medical certficates to the GMC.

That is very ignorant and bigotry one size fits all attitude. nor welcomed here Oil Sheikh.

We can see where poorer pay left the dental service -it went private.

The problem is though if you get to that level with so much hard work,altruism only gets you so far. When you come to think about it,some of these people are among the most qualified in our country,and a number of consultants are world experts in the field. People take this for granted and you cannot just paying them a relative pittance too.

I have criticised the NHS at times too,but I have seen the flip-side in a poor country myself too,where even simple operations can bankrupt a family and if you have a long term illness,it is a major financial burden too. The problem is like you highlighted,the public expects private service for public levels of funding and pay.

At some point,why should many doctors bother to get into the NHS directly?? They might end up going private or joining private firms which get sub-contracted to the NHS,with either greater cost to the public,or lower overall service or flexilbility.

This is what is going to happen IMHO,in the future with the NHS becoming more and more privatised.

Maybe,we need to expect a lower quality of service in the future in hospitals now,unless we are willing to pay extra in private healthcare!!