BBC Program: War on Britain's Roads

[Marenghi]

There are enough cyclists who blunder down pavements and streets,without a care in the world for pedestrians.

surely it's better and safer to inconvenience a pedestrian than going out on the road?

you can be the most careful driver in the world but you cannot be looking ahead of you and checking three mirrors plus your blind spots all at once whilst driving.
a year or two ago i was driving a HGV in London and it had just gone 5pm. i'm stopped near the centre on London at some lights, look in both my mirrors and there are lines of cyclists lined up along both sides of the lorry and i've got to navigate it through a three lane turn which was close to a 90 degree turn albeit a sweeping corner bar the last part, which in itself requires a lot of concentration just looking out for other vehicles let alone all these cyclists who from my point of view have got a death wish. since to get the HGV through the last part of the turn which is the sharpest, i have to move the vehicle from the middle of my lane to as far left of it as possible as to not get the back end cutting across the middle lane. thankfully the cyclists on the left of me seemed to clock what i had to do and whilst still hovered around the back wheels gave me enough room to complete the manoeuvre.

definitely the most the scariest driving experience i've had so far in my short life and i've had an atric tip over right in front of me

but back to my point, i really believe that inconvenience is a lot better than taking your chances out on the road, especially if HGV/LGV vehicles are involved with their blind spots and requirements for more space on the road to do simple things like turn a corner

[Biscuit]

Yeah that Web developer was a complete idiot and a terrible representative. He was clearly on the look out to try and make a situation and deliberately inconvenience drivers. I didn't trust a word he said. I'm not backing the taxi, he clearly didn't leave enough room but it wasn't nearly as bad as Mr developer made it out to be.

The one in Glasgow was the most striking example of why cyclists and motorists both need to be aware of each other, and a good reason why these vehicles should have more safety features fitted.

Those chaps who race through London are mental, I can see the rush but the impact it would have on the driver if they got knocked off and killed would be astronomical. I think a lot of cyclists do need to get off their high horse and remember that.

I had my fair share of close calls before my bike got nicked, but you just have to move on and laugh it off, creating confrontation on the street doesn't help anyone's cause.

[santa claus]

Delighted to see you have become a supporter of de-regulation and small government.

Yep, although we do need a new law authorising homosexuals and lesbians to ride bikes wherever they want. This shoudn't be compulsory though.

[Butcher]

surely it's better and safer to inconvenience a pedestrian than going out on the road?

Safer for the cyclist maybe, not really for the pedestrian. People have been killed by being struck by cyclists after all.
Also it's illegal.

[Marenghi]

Safer for the cyclist maybe, not really for the pedestrian. People have been killed by being struck by cyclists after all.

really? i'm very surprised if a pedal bike has managed to kill someone, got a link?

Also it's illegal.

you don't say

[Flibb]

Its rare but does happen.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/...-sentence.html
When cycling to work I used to be doing 20-25 mph for stretches of it, I couldnt use the cyclepaths (segregated pavements) because pedestrians would often be walking in the bike bit.

[sp4nky]

I'm surprised he wasn't at least charged with manslaughter. If I hit someone with a hammer and they died, I'd probably be looking at a murder charge. Why should people in charge of vehicles (including bicycles) be treated differently?

Oh, here's another one.. http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...n-death-17458/

[Marenghi]

Its rare but does happen.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/...-sentence.html
When cycling to work I used to be doing 20-25 mph for stretches of it, I couldnt use the cyclepaths (segregated pavements) because pedestrians would often be walking in the bike bit.

blimey i stand corrected. still i'm guessing it could be one of those freak deaths where the persons head made contact at the wrong point with the pavement and could have happened from a fight or fall/slip etc

[Smudger]

blimey i stand corrected. still i'm guessing it could be one of those freak deaths where the persons head made contact at the wrong point with the pavement and could have happened from a fight or fall/slip etc

Could have, but the victim's head would have been nowhere near the pavement without having a cyclist riding illegally. Pedestrians tend not to wear helmets, so a handlebar can whack a temple, a brake handle can go up a nose.

[TheAnimus]

Could have, but the victim's head would have been nowhere near the pavement without having a cyclist riding illegally. Pedestrians tend not to wear helmets, so a handlebar can whack a temple, a brake handle can go up a nose.

Absolutely, but it is worth taking in to account the number of journies made by bicycles which are openly flouting the flaw, which result in no harm to bystanders. Compared to say motorists.

Whilst cyclists shouldn't have carte blanch to behave badly, the 'cost to society' of it is minimal, and also its often them who bare the brunt. This is the exact oposite with motorists.

Ultimately if it was up to me on the spot fines for cycle offences, headphones £50, jumping a red light £50.

Even then I would still frequently jump certain red lights, which I know well and pose no danger. If I was ever fined for doing so it would be a shocking indightment of my failure to observe that there was someone there....

[santa claus]

I would still frequently jump certain red lights, which I know well and pose no danger.

Me too. Often in the interests of my own safety.

[TheAnimus]

Me too. Often in the interests of my own safety.

Yup.

If I saved the footage from my camera, I'd have thousands of motorists who don't stop before they are halfway in the cycle escape.

Now either thats because they don't see the purpose of such a thing, which is frankly worrying as a cyclist. Or they are unable to stop their car with an accuracy of 2 meters, which is even more worrying.

In those circumstances, I do my level best to jump the lights, always, even if its a cross road, because I need to get to a safe speed (ie 10mph plus) before that pillock tries to overtake me. Going behind him isn't an option because that would leave me exposed to a 'left turn incident'. With those principles I've never had a left turn problem at a junction I can't easily break for.

[Biscuit]

So your talking setting off from the lights before they have changed back to amber/green rather than passing them once they are already red?

Im kinda with you on that one. There is a single lane railway bridge underpass with lights either side on my journey to work. If you dont start before it goes amber and deliberately take up a fair amount of space, the numpties always try and get round you under the bridge where there is railings one side and a wall the other... so nowhere to fall but underneath their wheels

[scaryjim]

As I think pretty much everyone here knows, I'm an ardent driver, cyclist *and* pedestrian. I'm not going to say I would never bike on a pavement, but I'd much rather wait with the standing traffic than pull onto the pavement and bike on.

Had a great incident walking home with the wife (we'd got off the bus five stops early because the traffic was so bad!), idiot on a bike almost crashes into us. We both turn round and ask him what he thinks he's doing biking on the pavement. His reply? "Well, the road's full of traffic, duh!". And when we pointed out that's because the road is *for* traffic, like him, and the pavement for pedestrians, his reply was "I am a pedestrian". Seriously. You couldn't make it up.

Haven't seen the program originally referenced in this thread, but in 30 miles of commuting each week I reckon I could easily make a half hour program out of bad road usage by all three groups. But IMNSHO the motorists would come out looking worst, for two main reasons: 1) sheer weight of numbers - I see more motor vehicles in my commute than cyclists and pedestrians put together; and 2) potential lethality - I rarely see a cyclist or pedestrian do something that endangers someone other than themselves, and when I do the worst likely outcome is a bit of brusing or a few grazes. Pretty much ever motor vehicle incident could kill someone.

[Rave]

I also haven't watched the programme. But I may at some point.

I recently bought a scooter after 6 years of not having a powered two-wheeler, and it's been interesting. I had a 500cc bike in my mid 20s, and fell off it twice simply because of riding too fast and too aggressively in traffic (thankfully no real harm done to me, and the bike was fixable with parts from the local scrappy both times). In the interevening 6 years I've become a lot older and more cautious, though no better at timekeping which means I'm still as likely to be rushing.

I had thought that I'd get the same bother I get when I venture out on my road pedal cycle- cars pulling out on me when I'm doing 20+mph etc.- but so far, not so much, people seem to see me just as well as they'd see a car. The scoot is good for me really- it's a Honda Vision 110, which has enough poke to nip ahead of cars so I'm never holding anyone up at the lights, but it doesn't have enough power to get me out of trouble if an overtake were to go wrong, so I generally don't overtake traffic doing more than about 25mph unless I have tons of space.

Knowing what I do from 6 years in the bus industry, I use extreme caution around any vehicle bigger than 2 tons.

Really it all comes down to thinking about what's going on on the roads, and what other road users might potentially do. I only spent 20 months driving buses full time, but that's easily enough to learn all you need to know about what other road users might get up to, if you can be bothered to watch, and then learn to anticipate.

For example, since I last had a motorbike, they've been let in to most of London's bus lanes, which is frankly brilliant. But it isn't a license to blast past lines of cars without a care in the world. If I'm riding up the inside of a quewe, and there's a road on the left, I hit the brakes and slow down until I know for damn sure that someone in the quewe hasn't stopped to let a car coming the other way turn right into said road across my path. Overtaking a bus that's served a stop while in a quewe of traffic? Again, 5mph until I can see that a passenger who's just alighted isn't going to run out in front if it. All this applies just as much to cyclists, and yet so many of them seem to just disengage their brains and think that reading the road isn't worthy of their time.

[Larkspeed]

Finally got to see this program.

I hold it as a classic example of why I will not let my daughter anywhere near a British road on a bike.

There are two problems in that video

Lack of Infrastructure and Lack of Enforcement

You can't say that cyclists are at fault and nor can you say that the Car drivers are at fault because this video clearly shows that both are as guilty as the other.

As the number of cyclists increase then infrastructure should be getting put in place do deal with them. Just painting the gutters a different color is not a solution.

As far as enforcement goes if cyclists break the law they should be given heavy fines and The same should go for the Drivers as well.

The incident where the guy was nearly squashed by the white tanker truck, the truck driver was clearly at fault, he was interviewed and admitted he was driving the truck at the time, he was then charged with dangerous driving and in some monumental brain fart from the Scottish authorities it was decided that even though it was caught on video and the driver admitted to it that there was insufficient evidence and the case was dropped.

As long as stuff like that goes unpunished then this stuff will continue. Start handing out heavy fines for dangerous driving and holding drivers accountable and maybe they will start to change.

From the cycle side they should bring in mandatory registration of bicycles and make them display number plates, if they are not as anonymous and they can get heavy penalties then just maybe they will start to smarten up as well.

Do both and things will get better

But you cannot punish one without punishing the other or one group just learns to hate the other and things get worse.

---edit---

And to comment on what Rave said above.

When I took my bike training I was always taught you don't ride around thinking "that car may pull out or that kid may run into the road" you do ride around thinking "The car WILL pull out and that kid IS going to run into the road" and that way you are always prepared if is happens.