ATOS Medical Assessment .

[melon]

A good example is an event that happened to a family member. I have limited medical knowledge, no formal training, but I've read a lot about different bits, I know what the best practice for many things should be so I was surprised they didn't get an MRI. Two years on the cost of not doing that small upfront expense has meant that the NHS will be paying hundreds of thousands of pounds. To the sufferer it means they will be in needless pain for the rest of their life.

I hate quoting specifics like this, but there is a lot that is messed up with the NHS. This is why I get so pissed off when people start harping on about it as if it is some fragile deity. It is slow, inefficient and cruel. If our only yardstick is that on mean-average its better than the USA, then frankly I don't want to play that game.

It wastes money left right and centre, whilst those responsible have no repercussions for their actions. We already see the middle class going for health holidays to India for surgery and Poland for orthodontics, rather than wait for surgery on the NHS. That is not a good trend, soon that will mean only the very poorest or conditions the most expensive have no option but to fall back on the NHS. If you'd paid the tax I had, you'd demand the best health care. We're not getting it, we need to look at what we can improve, we also need to abandon the new labour style we've just spent an extra £100000 on it, isn't that good! attitude and focus on quality care being value for money.

I agree, I would have no problem either having my benefits put into a system that was designed to help or reward those who helped build it i.e. by playing guinea pig or contributing cash to research for related issues.

Cancer for example is irrelevant to someone with heart disease or connective tissue problems ,so why should they be taxed on it , if thats where the bulk of research is already being done ?

Wheres the incentive to work for a better life for those with unrelated issues or in the minority with no help ?

Wheres the evidence / justification someone with cancer suffers more than someone who suffers many years instead, or with multiple issues (some of which cancer can cause ) -or with something that cant even be perhaps verified because of the lack of investment being made in scanning.

I dont think majority should decide any more than 50 white men should get a job over 20 black guys .

It should come down to quality of research , and not simply how much money can be made from big pharma endorsed drugs , thats not ethical or fair and there is no reason think why well researched smaller illnesses couldnt help bigger ones any more than bigger ones can help smaller.

[chuckskull]

Thread cleaned. If anyone wishes to discuss comparative theology feel free to create another thread.

Can we please try to keep this one on topic.

[jigger]

Thank you.

I was starting to come over all Holly fragmented off topic arguments Batman!

[flearider]

would those complaining plz tell us whats wrong with you ??.. because most i see theres not a lot ....i've got rheumatoid arthritis running down my spine and shoulders like my father it will prob sieze the joints .. i've had it 8 yrs never go off sick work a 40-50 hr week ..as a chef ..
if ya want to work you will if you want to have an easy life ya will .. it's mindset i'm 47 ..and i will not let this stop me till i retire ..

[g8ina]

flearider, I have fibromyalgia, and this means I cannot stand, or walk any distance without great pain.

I also have severe memory problems and concentration problems. If ATOS think I am fit for work, they can find me a job.

If the employer doesn't mind me forgetting what I'm doing, or staying in bed all day cuz I'm in too much pain to even get up, take numerous trips to the loo all day every day due to severe IBS, then fine, I'll work.

[TheAnimus]

If ATOS think I am fit for work, they can find me a job.

I don't want to tie this to your specific example, I want to avoid a case of Net MD has got your condition sussed after one sentence, I also want to avoid "oh buy I know xyz, with abc and they work".

However that attitude plane stinks.

With absolutely no medical knowledge of your unique position I wouldn't begin to say those would "just work" for you, I am merely saying that ultimately it is your responsibility to figure out, find or create what work you can do. The rules around the hiring of people with disabilities are very comprehensive and probably provide too much cover against exploitation, but there are plenty of grants for employers.

If you go into it with the attitude of "they must find me a job then", it is obvious they won't. I don't care where you think moral responsibility lies, if someone unjustly throws you overboard you tread water or you die. The fact you were thrown doesn't stop you dieing.

It is not for the government to allocate you to a job, they are frankly terrible at it. But as I mentioned already in this thread a major international firm uses a mixture of people who need to work at home, granted it's mostly mothers, but the ability to do flexible hours, require no movement such as walking or even sitting upright are quite common. Many people in the workforce are only able to do what they do because of drugs such as Adderal or Provigil. SSRIs, notrops, amphets are common requirements for 'non-disabled' people to be able to not kill themselves on a morning, or be able to hold down a job.

The point I'm making is there are opportunities out there for people of all kinds, but just like everyone else, it won't get handed to you.

[jigger]

would those complaining plz tell us whats wrong with you ??.. because most i see theres not a lot ....i've got rheumatoid arthritis running down my spine and shoulders like my father it will prob sieze the joints .. i've had it 8 yrs never go off sick work a 40-50 hr week ..as a chef ..
if ya want to work you will if you want to have an easy life ya will .. it's mindset i'm 47 ..and i will not let this stop me till i retire ..

But what would you do if you had got so ill work had become impossible to carry on with and got told you are 100% fit for work?

[jigger]

However that attitude plane stinks.
.

What stinks is when you have a private firm getting paid a lot of tax payers money to make mistakes with indemnity.

People don't seem to be getting any help when it could be offered. What seems to be happening is people are being pushed off a cliff for profit. Why is the system like that? why not take everyone on a person by person basis and see if they can be offered help back into work.

I bet tens of thousands of sick and disabled people have been doing nothing else but trying to find a job they can hold down for years. I just don't get how people say it not the governments problem to help people find employment if they are struggling. Its simply stupid to have that mind set.

[TheAnimus]

What stinks is when you have a private firm getting paid a lot of tax payers money to make mistakes with indemnity.

No, they both stink, this isn't a case of x is worse than y.

People don't seem to be getting any help when it could be offered. What seems to be happening is people are being pushed off a cliff for profit. Why is the system like that? why not take everyone on a person by person basis and see if they can be offered help back into work.

What help would be offered? How would you arrange it? Most of the complaints about ATOS are due to the simplification of complex medical conditions, sure you can lift your arm above your head... today. The only person that really knows whats capable and sustainable is sadly the person themselves.

I bet tens of thousands of sick and disabled people have been doing nothing else but trying to find a job they can hold down for years. I just don't get how people say it not the governments problem to help people find employment if they are struggling. Its simply stupid to have that mind set.

Really? I was hiring a part time translator. English to French, it was going to be a constant 100 hours a month, paying £14 an hour. This is more than the average for this work, but the client wanted someone permanent, they didn't care where.

It would have been perfect for someone who had say RSI/FM/IBS.

How many people who were disabled applied? 0. How do I know this? I actually looked at setting up the grant for disabilities, the employer has extra objective-1 funding available for that. Granted not everyone speaks a second language. But it is somewhat indicative.

For all the roles I've hired, and during my consultation phase I did that quite a lot, I had not one applicant who was coming from any kind of ESA. This is for online-remote working jobs. I can't think of something better suited, and having worked with someone who is suffering a degenerative disease, I can't think of a better way of a business buying someone like him for £12 per hour, he would cost three times that if he wasn't sick.

[jigger]

No, they both stink, this isn't a case of x is worse than y.What help would be offered? How would you arrange it? Most of the complaints about ATOS are due to the simplification of complex medical conditions, sure you can lift your arm above your head... today. The only person that really knows whats capable and sustainable is sadly the person themselves.Really? I was hiring a part time translator. English to French, it was going to be a constant 100 hours a month, paying £14 an hour. This is more than the average for this work, but the client wanted someone permanent, they didn't care where.

It would have been perfect for someone who had say RSI/FM/IBS.

How many people who were disabled applied? 0. How do I know this? I actually looked at setting up the grant for disabilities, the employer has extra objective-1 funding available for that. Granted not everyone speaks a second language. But it is somewhat indicative.

For all the roles I've hired, and during my consultation phase I did that quite a lot, I had not one applicant who was coming from any kind of ESA. This is for online-remote working jobs. I can't think of something better suited, and having worked with someone who is suffering a degenerative disease, I can't think of a better way of a business buying someone like him for £12 per hour, he would cost three times that if he wasn't sick.

Last time I checked we still had Job Centres. We don't need to hand out a lucrative contract to anyone.

I have no idea why you don't get disabled people applying for jobs. How many did you ask?

[melon]

Last time I checked we still had Job Centres. We don't need to hand out a lucrative contract to anyone.

I have no idea why you don't get disabled people applying for jobs. How many did you ask?

One word TRUST , how do you trust a government prepared to fake results in order to save money , and see you as fit even if your not.

Where is the middleground to stop them using work as justification for the ability to work even if it half kills you to do it ? ( I heard this is what they did even before the new changes ) so whats to stop them doing it now and cutting your benefit off completely ?

Futhermore what happens if you become worse through work , be it physically or mentally , how is that taken into account or recognised when their already ignoring everything else ?

Will they pay for special treatment that maybe required and otherwise avoided had that disabled person not been forced to work , and what happens if there is none and that person is left permanently worse with no money to even pay for options themselves ?

Work by definition requires repetition so its reliable , in a nutshell this one reason why employing the disabled is bad , because most cant do it.

[wasabi]

Last time I checked we still had Job Centres. We don't need to hand out a lucrative contract to anyone.

I have no idea why you don't get disabled people applying for jobs. How many did you ask?

Job centres are mostly for people forced to look for work, not for people actually looking for work. Employers know this and don't want to be interviewing timewasters.

[jigger]

Well I'm an employer and just about every position I've been unable to fill has gone through a Job Centre. Yes I've had the odd issue but that's just part of the game. But that's not really my point, we have an established institution that could be writing to every disabled person and genuinely trying to help people that can be helped and identifying the one that can't won't whatever.

We have everything we need to do this already set up and in place and an abundant supply of able bodied labour. These pointless exercises in work experiences could help setup a disabled persons business with a prospect of a full time job without needing to waste a fortune paying a private firm from tax payers pockets for an example.

[jigger]

One word TRUST , how do you trust a government prepared to fake results in order to save money , and see you as fit even if your not.

Where is the middleground to stop them using work as justification for the ability to work even if it half kills you to do it ? ( I heard this is what they did even before the new changes ) so whats to stop them doing it now and cutting your benefit off completely ?

Futhermore what happens if you become worse through work , be it physically or mentally , how is that taken into account or recognised when their already ignoring everything else ?

Will they pay for special treatment that maybe required and otherwise avoided had that disabled person not been forced to work , and what happens if there is none and that person is left permanently worse with no money to even pay for options themselves ?

Work by definition requires repetition so its reliable , in a nutshell this one reason why employing the disabled is bad , because most cant do it.

All good points mate. The vulnerable have to be very carefully protected we maybe need some laws passed. I don't know to much about how we go about that TBH. Currently they are in danger, I could see myself easily getting into a position of working myself into an early grave out of sheer frustration if I was in the position a lot of people are finding themselves in. No one should have to suffer embarrassment or put themselves in harms way so the rest of us can pay a little less. We have enough money in this country to take care of everyone.

[chaotic_russ]

We have enough money in this country to take care of everyone

according to the gov we don't that's why we are in dept but they still spend billions to be in the eu which rises in cost every year , will the eu take care of us disabled when we are near death due to being force to work when unfit ? . I don't think so

[melon]

according to the gov we don't that's why we are in dept but they still spend billions to be in the eu which rises in cost every year , will the eu take care of us disabled when we are near death due to being force to work when unfit ? . I don't think so

how much for thatchers funeral ?

then 15 million i just read going overseas to stop suffering while in turn they ensure their own are suffering instead .

we all know all this any way ,question is how can we stop it ?

for me at least I have SNP a chance for change ( for better or worse ) but change nonetheless, but I feel bad for everyone else in the UK .