Question regarding wages and non-payment etc.

[format]

So I have recently started full time work with a new employer, but I've yet to sign a contract.

I am rota'd in for roughly 5 shifts a week, usually around 11.00 - 19.00.

It's a cafe that I work in, and due to the inconsistent level of custom, I can be finished by 18.45, or (as is more often the case) 19.30, or even up to 20.00. For example - I can start cleaning down an hour before I am due to finish ( it usually takes around this long to complete all required tasks) but if a table or customer comes in, I need to stop what I am doing and often dirty things like chopping boards etc all over again. As such, it's very difficult to get everything finished by the allotted time.


As you can imagine, these extra hours add up over the course of the week. I've made a few discrete enquiries to co workers, who say that these extra hours do not get paid.

This is something that I cannot believe - every other job I've ever had simply accepts that in a job such as this, finishing times are, by nature, variable.


I haven't raised this with my boss yet as I want to get some idea of what kind of ground I'm on here.

Surely it's illegal to expect me to work certain hours (I'm on an hourly rate here, not a salary) and then refuse to pay me for them?


Please advise!

Cheers.

[Hicks12]

Depends how they do it, I know in my work they wont pay me extra but thats simply because we are given a set amount of things to do by the end of our shift (of course this never happens in the real world...). The main point though is should you be paid for those 10 hours if you finish early? You cant have it both ways unfortunately , unless its a big business then it normally is possible .

[Agent]

Is this an hourly paid job? Salaries can work slightly differently.

I had a similar issue when I worked for GAME many years ago. We were told to arrive 10 mins before the shift, which changed to 15 and then 20 mins later down the line. We we're also "expected" to leave the shop in a state ready for the next day of trading. Fair enough - but when the shop was shutting at 8 and it took up to an hour, this was entirely unpaid (and I missed the last bus).

I went down the proper route - politely pointing this out on several occasions, but it was very much a 'put up or shut up' attitude towards workers. I tracked my hours over the space of a month and reported it to payrole and told them under no uncertain terms that I would be taking legal action if they didn't sort it out.

I did get my money and the store did increase it's hours to cover a lot more (but not all) of the extra work that needed to be done. The downside was that I was passed up for every promotion, no matter how small an increase of pay it was, all the time I was there.

Keep in mind being a new employee there is a chance they could just turn around and say "Sorry, you're not what we're looking for" and get rid of you.

Sadly your situation is common in retail. They'll make you feel like you're letting your co-workers down and not the company, which is rather annoying as they'll be the ones picking up the slack. They know what they're doing.

[HalloweenJack]

problem is , under 6 months employment and you have 0 rights at all ; as said above , job termination due to unsuitability and thanks good bye


even had that when i was at tesco`s - part way through a sunday shift 9 of us were told ` thank you but sadly this is the last shift we can give you hours for` and that was it - 2 hours later , unemployed.

[danroyle]

Our work have a simple policy you have to have if authorised in advance. We had a guy just before xmas who decided without being asked to that he should come in next hour early he did it for 3 weeks put in his overtime sheet and the bosses went mad and told him no he wasn't getting paid a we weren't busy and he hadn't asked in advance.

Point to that clarification is always good. You can always ask if your entitled to claim overtime

[Lucio]

It all comes down to the big question, do you need this job, for the pay they offer, knowing you work these extra hours unpaid?

The legality will come down to your contract, backed by employement law, but you could easily find yourself out of a job if you protest.

One other question to raise is "does this cut both ways" i.e. if you need half an hour to go to the GP's, do they still pay you for it.

[flearider]

your a slave to the system ..you have no rights ..as long as your getting paid a fair wage for what you do who cares ?
i'm sure theres times thru the day when your just standing about ..

anything over my rota'ed hrs i don't get paid for .. don't even get a break ..and most days i don't stop .. why am i still there ??well have you seen the unemployment figurs these days ??i think more for what i can give my familly atm rather than how i'm treated ..

[format]

Depends how they do it, I know in my work they wont pay me extra but thats simply because we are given a set amount of things to do by the end of our shift (of course this never happens in the real world...). The main point though is should you be paid for those 10 hours if you finish early? You cant have it both ways unfortunately , unless its a big business then it normally is possible .

We too are given a set amount to do (in fact, I give my self a set amount to do - food prep, mostly) but the fact is that the majority of my work is completely variable - if a table of 6 people comes in at 6.30 and I'm due to finish at 7, there's absolutely no chance I'm getting out of there before 8. Likewise, if I have customers in the cafe all day from start to finish, there's no chance at all I can get all of my 'set' tasks completed.

Can you see why I think this is unfair?

your a slave to the system ..you have no rights ..as long as your getting paid a fair wage for what you do who cares ?
i'm sure theres times thru the day when your just standing about ..

That's the thing - I don't even take breaks. I'm used to it from working in kitchens and such but on a typical 8-10 hour day I won't even sit down.



I suppose this is just good motivation for me pushing on a searching for a graduate job.

[ehhhhhhh]

That's the thing - I don't even take breaks. I'm used to it from working in kitchens and such but on a typical 8-10 hour day I won't even sit down.

I couldn't understand this attitude during my time at lowly jobs. Why are you making extra effort when your employer classifies you as a slave and acts as you're just a tool?

Not having a break for 8-10 hours is just stupid and a way of self destruction.

[kalniel]

The fact you haven't signed a contract worries me, because that will contain the details that would resolve this. As it stands you're on a verbal contract I guess, so as long as you keep showing up they can pretty much tell you what they want and take your acceptance as read.

Most contracts contain information about overtime and hours worked, and I've seen them range from paying the hours you actually work, to if overtime is needed then you have to do it and not be paid for it. My own contract is a little like the latter, but it's not governed by UK law so I couldn't tell you if it would be allowed or not.

[Spud1]

It's a very tricky situation..and one I empathise with after my days working predominately in retail. It's worth mentioning that this problem is present in every industry that has an hourly rate (or hourly enhancements) - even in the public sector. The NHS is notorious for it.

The issue is that legally you may well be entitled to be paid those hours, and there are legal requirements for you to take breaks on a shift too.

Thats all great on paper - but in reality if you start to complain/make a fuss about this, you will find yourself out of a job before long. There are enough people willing to do the work in the same (or worse!) situation without "causing trouble" (as the employer will see it).

So Your choices as I see it are:

A) Put up with it for now and find a better employer (not easy I know!)
B) Talk to your boss/employer about it and see how they react - but in a calm, controlled way as you don't want to complain about it, j(this is the best option imo)
C) If B doesn't have any effect, then you take it further with a formal complaint that may lead to investigation/sanctions etc on the company. This is really a last resort as the end result will be you are out of a job one way or another. You can't be fired for this but they can make your life hell at work whilst staying on the right side of the law/contracts


Really really tricky situation..it's well worth speaking to your local citizens advice service to see what help they can offer - the above is only my own thoughts and shouldn't be taken as "Gospel"

Good luck

[HalloweenJack]

IIRC an emploer has 12 weeks after you starting a new job to give you a contract anyway? got a dodgy memory though

[Agent]

IIRC an emploer has 12 weeks after you starting a new job to give you a contract anyway? got a dodgy memory though

It doesn't really matter though these days as most retail jobs are part time with 'zero hour' or 4 hour contracts. If they want to get rid of you, they keep you on a base hours. No one can survive on zero / 4 hours.

It's an employers market. There are very few reasons for retail to take anyone on full time at the lower levels.

[HalloweenJack]

^^ tesco`s are famed for that one - minimum or `core` hours cntracts (7 1/2 hours a week over 2 shifts) but can flexi you up to full time as business needs - which they allways do , but you want holiday or go sick? your on core hours for pay....

[jim]

Most contracts contain information about overtime and hours worked, and I've seen them range from paying the hours you actually work, to if overtime is needed then you have to do it and not be paid for it. My own contract is a little like the latter, but it's not governed by UK law so I couldn't tell you if it would be allowed or not.

Mine says precisely that, and is governed by UK law. But it's a very different situation to the OP (not an hourly rate, and work fluctuates, both directions, from week to week), and I'm happy with it. Of course though, I understood that before signing, because it was written into the contract.

[format]

I couldn't understand this attitude during my time at lowly jobs. Why are you making extra effort when your employer classifies you as a slave and acts as you're just a tool?

Not having a break for 8-10 hours is just stupid and a way of self destruction.

It's not that bad tbh, I've worked 14-16 hour days on my feet all day in other jobs without a break or even food. At least this place lets me have coffee and food if I want it.

The fact you haven't signed a contract worries me, because that will contain the details that would resolve this. As it stands you're on a verbal contract I guess, so as long as you keep showing up they can pretty much tell you what they want and take your acceptance as read.

Most contracts contain information about overtime and hours worked, and I've seen them range from paying the hours you actually work, to if overtime is needed then you have to do it and not be paid for it. My own contract is a little like the latter, but it's not governed by UK law so I couldn't tell you if it would be allowed or not.

My employer said there will be a contract presented shortly. Guess I'll have to read it over carefully before signing.

A) Put up with it for now and find a better employer (not easy I know!)
B) Talk to your boss/employer about it and see how they react - but in a calm, controlled way as you don't want to complain about it, j(this is the best option imo)
C) If B doesn't have any effect, then you take it further with a formal complaint that may lead to investigation/sanctions etc on the company. This is really a last resort as the end result will be you are out of a job one way or another. You can't be fired for this but they can make your life hell at work whilst staying on the right side of the law/contracts


Really really tricky situation..it's well worth speaking to your local citizens advice service to see what help they can offer - the above is only my own thoughts and shouldn't be taken as "Gospel"

Good luck

Well, I should be starting an MA after the summer so it's not for ever but as it stands I'm losing around £30-£40 a week in unpaid work. Might not seem a lot to some of you but it certainly is to me! I'll try B, I suppose, or at least try and get rota'd in for an extra half an hour each day.