Benefit changes yay or nay?

[TheAnimus]

I have yet to work out why people on benefits get clumped into one group by governments there is a distinct difference to someone who has no job because he was made redundant and is trying to find employment and someone who has never bothered to seek any form of gainful employment. then you have those who have a genuine need based on disability and those who spend years receiving incapacity benefits for bogus conditions.

Because it will actually make things a bit more sensable. If you imagine someone who has physical health issues, as it stands it can be a bit of an odd mix between the NHS trust, the local authority and the housing authority. Then things like say Winter Fuel come in to the mix, the idea of having a seperate agency with each one not knowing about the other makes little sense.

The issue is the government and civil service would charge billions of pounds to arrange a piss up in a brewery, big contracts would have to go out to tender and only after both Logica and Accenture had billed for a few hundread million just to suggest that the brewery venue is suitable. After a bit of fighting between the politicions about which of their marginal constituancies is more worthy of the investment, they would finally decide that the pissup should happen in a new, purpose built facility in the middle of effin no where, building a new motorway to connect it. Finally the day before the party (which has now been pushed back 3 years) they would realise that due to a lack of any rail or public transport links, and the fact the newly constructed brewery is 50 miles away from the nearest hotel, lots of people might be drunk driving. As such re-enforcements from the met police would be drafted in to brethalise and esnure responsible drinking at the piss up. In the end 5 people would turn up as the politicions call it a resounding sucsess and declare the the legacy of rejuvination would live on. The brewery, obviously not an economically viable concern given its location and lack of key construction features such as a mash tub, closes as soon as the increased subsidy that was needed expires.

Anyone who in any way criticsed the piss up is branded un-patrotic, a spoil sport, and worst of all is accused of squeezing the economy by not increasing spending.

[wasabi]

A couple of years ago some Tories mooted lowering the minimum wage for the disabled on the grounds that they cound't reasonably do as much as the able-bodied by definition, plus caused a lot of costs for employers due to extra equipment, ramps etc etc. As usual the lefties jumped all over it with the usual evil-slavedriver exploiter claims and it got dropped.

[melon]

The biggest joke about all this is wont matter a damm in the end - everyone is going to get somehow screwed and lose more & more ( including the now rich so its only super elite )

The US is always setting the trend through the same folk who orchestrated the problem , so all this comes down too is the usual smokescreen semantics that is just the tail end of a much bigger problem no one can touch .

As long as that continues - as it will - then the idea of using poor to achieve anything is laughable - but not so funny when it changes to 99% instead of what is now.

Whose holding them accountable , and monitoring them at the top of their pyramids ?

They who control all should be the most watched of all

m

[melon]

Besides - if you really wanted to catch cheats , Im sure you could eliminate a lot by simply having cams in clubs in pubs , or other , " haunts " to spot them like at football matches .

You could also have an alcohol / ciggy license that shows how much families spend / use these things per month.

Pretty obvious most of their social life revolves round drink and " sticking another bun in the oven " so why arent these places targeted ?

I mean where else do they think most of these chavs meet , in board rooms , or at jobs they dont have ?

They must meet them somewhere , and I doubt its through dating sites or just facebook ( though once again Im sure they could find out if they were )

m

[jim]

I would assume that the reason is because it's not economically viable.

I reckon most of the people caught are dobbed in by associates/mates, at least to begin an investigation.

Obviously I have no facts whatsoever to back this up, although given that we've discussed at length before how little money is spent on benefit fraud, and we all know how much it costs to try to create or expand a government department, I can see how that would pan out.

[TheAnimus]

Indeed most of the fraud and cheating according to government statistics is ment to be on Housing and Disability.

In fact the ones that you really see the most of in the news are always focused on disability. Surely changes to try and address this are a good idea? Even if they are overally buracratic.

[melon]

Indeed most of the fraud and cheating according to government statistics is ment to be on Housing and Disability.

In fact the ones that you really see the most of in the news are always focused on disability. Surely changes to try and address this are a good idea? Even if they are overally buracratic.

its not just bureaucratic though if the assessors arent qualified to start with ,then again there's no honour among thieves is there ?

So no - those changes are not good they are downright damming to any one legit at the expense of some Eton inbreeds.

Wheres our human rights ?

Because what you've really got here is slave labour enforced by joke of system that forces the disabled ( even after many yrs ) to have to keep proving it by appealing in court because IT DOES NOT WORK..

So u either sink or drown - no choice just 2 different hells designed to break you.

As for the chavs , they'll still cheat ,they'll just steal and beat up their many love maidens leaving broke families and whole gen of dipsheet that will makes this one look like disneyland

In fact the irony is the disabled will be more of target now too , because after their kin , we're next - along with the old.

So what u gonna do when the chavs run wild on u ?

Hulk up - bring in " Private Companies " ( Police State ) to enforce the same draconian 1 size fits all rule till we're all slaves to state

Its not as far away as you think , and once again I ask wheres our killswitch ?

And you begin to see why gun law in the US have become such a focus for your Obama and his ilk.

m

[xodianbarr]

its not just bureaucratic though if the assessors arent qualified to start with ,then again there's no honour among thieves is there ?

So no - those changes are not good they are downright damming to any one legit at the expense of some Eton inbreeds.

Wheres our human rights ?

Because what you've really got here is slave labour enforced by joke of system that forces the disabled ( even after many yrs ) to have to keep proving it by appealing in court because IT DOES NOT WORK..

So u either sink or drown - no choice just 2 different hells designed to break you.

As for the chavs , they'll still cheat ,they'll just steal and beat up their many love maidens leaving broke families and whole gen of dipsheet that will makes this one look like disneyland

In fact the irony is the disabled will be more of target now too , because after their kin , we're next - along with the old.

So what u gonna do when the chavs run wild on u ?

Hulk up - bring in " Private Companies " ( Police State ) to enforce the same draconian 1 size fits all rule till we're all slaves to state

Its not as far away as you think , and once again I ask wheres our killswitch ?

And you begin to see why gun law in the US have become such a focus for your Obama and his ilk.

m

Any civilised society is but three meals from rebellion.

[melon]

enjoy ..



m

[TheAnimus]

its not just bureaucratic though if the assessors arent qualified to start with ,then again there's no honour among thieves is there ?

So no - those changes are not good they are downright damming to any one legit at the expense of some Eton inbreeds.

Wheres our human rights ?

Because what you've really got here is slave labour enforced by joke of system that forces the disabled ( even after many yrs ) to have to keep proving it by appealing in court because IT DOES NOT WORK..

So u either sink or drown - no choice just 2 different hells designed to break you.

As for the chavs , they'll still cheat ,they'll just steal and beat up their many love maidens leaving broke families and whole gen of dipsheet that will makes this one look like disneyland

In fact the irony is the disabled will be more of target now too , because after their kin , we're the next easiest victims , if not first.

I've quoted so much of your post, because I don't want you to edit it again.

Can you not see the inherent racisim in your post?

You've got "Eton inbreds" and "chavs".

But you're in the middle right? Your not as lowly as a chav, but your not as high as an Etonian. Your obviously the deserving poor right?

First off not having qualified people making paperpushing descisions is beurocratic. I'm going to be using my overdraft due to such people whilst they hold on to two months wage before deciding to give it back (I hope, my understanding is it is legally and morally mine). This sadly is normal, it will get better as the system matures, but there will always be people caught up in the middle of it, there was five years ago, and there will be in five years.

I'd like to know why its at the expense of some Eton inbred. Really not sure where your going with that.

Human rights are just fine are they not? Care to point me to either the relivent legal reason why they are being infringed, or give a moral arugment? "Durr huu government not giving me as much of other peoples money as I want" isn't considered a human rights violation.

So, this is not slave labour, at no point is it even close. The worst is that the sick will get only JSA, which means they will have to get by on less per day, whilst doing no work. At no point is work expected with zero renumeration. The fact you equate the two as equal is frankly shocking.



If you look at the projection it is really a small adjustment that is been set out to be achived.

The reason I end up now with zero sympathy, is you equate a, yes fully burocratic, needlessly soo, review of your benefits, as slavery.

So you end up on JSA. So what, that's what many people who aren't economically active have to do. If the worst possible outcome is that, your complaints are not remotely in line with it.

Your not entitled to anything. At the moment you get something because there are enough people working to pay for it. Except there isn't. We've got a decefit, we're piling debt on faster than we can afford to service it. That means cuts have got to be made. Most don't want any cuts to education or the NHS, so whats left?

Your attitude is that someone else should pay, that you should feel no consiquences of the overspending, despite been nothing but a recipient of it.

If my only concern for my income was having to have a couple of medicals, I'd be bloody happy. Come talking to me when HMRC demand over two months gross income that you've earnt, erronously, and tell you to pay or face criminal prosecution, which would ruin my business. But don't worry, you might get it back later. I'll remind you, slaves are people who work, without renumeration. Effectively I've worked for 12 months, but have only have money in my pocket for 3.5, when it should be almost 6.

[sammyc]

If my only concern for my income was having to have a couple of medicals, I'd be bloody happy.

There speaks someone without a notion of the current battle people face for disability benefits. A couple of medicals? Yeah, right. A perpetual round of form filling, phone calls, crossed wires, deliberate delays, misinformation, departments where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, getting your head round enough information to sit an 'O' level to even have a hope of not falling foul of all the pitfalls, your account of your limitations being disbelieved & frankly lied about, your drs evidence overridden, having to round up medical evidence & find advocacy for your situation, failed claims, stressful appeals, tribunals, and all the rest of it for a good year is a common experience for disabled people. Oh and then you start the whole thing again..

Incidentally a disabled person being shunted onto JSA, which they will be unable to claim as they cannot say that they are capable of work - a basic condition of claiming, is simple Catch-22. Not to mention, a fatal climb down from the position of someone claiming disability benefits as it would be as good as an admission they aren't unfit.

Come talking to me when HMRC demand over two months gross income that you've earnt, erronously, and tell you to pay or face criminal prosecution, which would ruin my business. But don't worry, you might get it back later. I'll remind you, slaves are people who work, without renumeration. Effectively I've worked for 12 months, but have only have money in my pocket for 3.5, when it should be almost 6.

Bottom line here though, is that at the end of the day, you have your health and the ability to work for 12 months. Frankly you can't put a price on that. Unfair if you do get screwed by the HMRC, yes. What would you rather, your health or 2 months gross income.. if you have to lose one, there's not much contest is there.

[TheAnimus]

There speaks someone without a notion of the current battle people face for disability benefits. A couple of medicals? Yeah, right. A perpetual round of form filling, phone calls, crossed wires, deliberate delays, misinformation, departments where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, getting your head round enough information to sit an 'O' level to even have a hope of not falling foul of all the pitfalls, your account of your limitations being disbelieved & frankly lied about, your drs evidence overridden, having to round up medical evidence & find advocacy for your situation, failed claims, stressful appeals, tribunals, and all the rest of it for a good year is a common experience for disabled people. Oh and then you start the whole thing again..

But if that falls completely flat, there is still some help.

If you read up my posts mock sucsessive governments inability to make anything thats not a burocratic nightmare.

But. It is needed, as the graph I showed demonstrates.

My point is that rather than people saying, it is a shambles because of XYZ, because they are paying 5 people to do the same job, because different agencies want to do the same tests. It's oh, poor me, having to do it. That is life. If we don't do this, where should the money come from?

Bottom line here though, is that at the end of the day, you have your health and the ability to work for 12 months. Frankly you can't put a price on that. Unfair if you do get screwed by the HMRC, yes. What would you rather, your health or 2 months gross income.. if you have to lose one, there's not much contest is there.

It is more a case of the suggestion that it is special or unfair. Being shafted by paperwork is a tradition of all governments. I am not saying what is happening to me is wrong, and everyone else right. That is the point I was trying to show. Because ultimately, I have my health, I am able to work, yet I still have to find time for such an HMRC clusterfornication, which has come at the expense of sleep, which intern is impacting my ability to work as i am paid for my mind, nothing more. Luckily my doctor was able to give me something for that.

Fighting to have to get free money is frankly not a concern to me, when we have a system which you have to fight in order to keep yours. Without going in to my personal situation I can't believe that they've acknowledged that its a erronious payment, but demanded it anyway.

What I am merly saying, is that all respect is lost when someone complains that they are a 'slave' in such matters. No, despite your ill health you've got everything else sorted. Even if this period goes terribly wrong, you won't become homeless. You won't starve, you won't stop reciving medical treatment.

Might things be a bit harder? Yes. But we are all seriously going to be having lifestyle adjustments, anyone who says otherwise is a liar, or expecting to be doing more profitable work.

[wasabi]

Bottom line here though, is that at the end of the day, you have your health and the ability to work for 12 months. Frankly you can't put a price on that. Unfair if you do get screwed by the HMRC, yes. What would you rather, your health or 2 months gross income.. if you have to lose one, there's not much contest is there.

Maybe. But at the end of the day claimants are living off one helluva lot of other peoples' money and putting nothing back in.

[sammyc]

No, despite your ill health you've got everything else sorted. Even if this period goes terribly wrong, you won't become homeless. You won't starve, you won't stop reciving medical treatment.

In theory maybe. However if you have failed successive disability benefits appeals, leaving you to claim JSA which is as I say not effectively an option open to you, then that is not really a safety net. People do become homeless, they give up, they can't cope with their condition and with fighting appeals, they slip through the gaps in the system.

Of course, life is hard, times are hard for the well and the unwell. No dispute there. The vital difference is the well have the one thing the sick lack, ie some degree of control over their situation. Oddly enough, most people don't actually want to be put in the position of having to claim benefits, very very far from it. Having a crap quality of life and lacking the smallest things well people take for granted, often with no prospect of improvement & a pretty bleak outlook for the future, is enough of a bad hand to be dealt. Being treated as somehow holding out your hand for money, as if that's anybody's idea of a satisfactory way to subsist, is lacking in any whit of 'there-but-for-the-grace-of-God' and sympathy. No-one argues it's a difficult situation and needs addressing, but a fraction of acknowledgment that sick people have not put themselves in the situation, and that the system of claiming benefits as it stands is not an easy course and certainly not a matter of a couple of medicals, is literally all that's being asked.

[sammyc]

Maybe. But at the end of the day claimants are living off one helluva lot of other peoples' money and putting nothing back in.

A blanket point that once again ignores those who have paid into the system. 'Some' claimants are living off other peoples' money and putting nothing back in maybe. 'Most' would far rather not take a penny, while being made to feel like some sort of parasite.

[TheAnimus]

A blanket point that once again ignores those who have paid into the system. 'Some' claimants are living off other peoples' money and putting nothing back in maybe. 'Most' would far rather not take a penny, while being made to feel like some sort of parasite.

Actually this is another problem we're failing to address, people are not saving enough for their old age, yet expecting equal or higher levels of life. This is unsustainable as we can't afford the population who are NEETs as is, but as the third world becomes less awful, we will see a rise in commodoties of all kinds, which will be at the expense of our living standards.

Given that, I'd say very few are actually paying their own way. The numbers really show that.

In theory maybe. However if you have failed successive disability benefits appeals, leaving you to claim JSA which is as I say not effectively an option open to you, then that is not really a safety net. People do become homeless, they give up, they can't cope with their condition and with fighting appeals, they slip through the gaps in the system.

Very true, but that number will be a lot less than those who find themselves out of work, with mortgages or just un-able to pay their rent. Try asking what housing options are available to a single male!

I'm suggesting those problems are universal, disability benefit or employed, that is the same. However as many people who are in reciet of such funds already have a housing benefit, it is much harder for them to become homeless.

Of course, life is hard, times are hard for the well and the unwell. No dispute there. The vital difference is the well have the one thing the sick lack, ie some degree of control over their situation.

Many really do not. This is my point.

Fighting for your health asesment, ill or not isn't *that* bad. People who are fighting for their job, seeing the decline of their company and such I'd say, have it much harder.

The point is that, what I find particularly disengenious of melons post, is he calls some people chavs, that is, the un-deserving poor, other people eton inbreds, that is, the un-deserving rich. Leaving him. He should obviously not have to feel any effects of the economy.

The accusation that he is somehow been singled out, penalised above others is foolish.

We have to get to grips with our care bill in general, we have to look at ways of controlling the money so that those who need it most, get it. I'm not saying lets throw people out on the streets, just that in the grand scheme of the changes we face, it's really not that bad. To try and compare it is an Apples and Oranges comparison, but to use the language, such entitlement is frankly insaine. The care bill is only servicable because of those in active economic employment, NI or similar government taxation has never put the money asside. I don't care if you never voted for labour, i'm not saying it's his fault, but this is the state of affairs. As such there is no money to be entitled too. To feel otherwise is silly, to have someone suggest they should be exempt from it, is silly, as that graph so simply shows we can not afford the current escalation.