The destruction of the education system

[peterb]

Just for clarification I have spent years as a teacher and recently left the profession as there is just too much stress.

A change in pension contributions meaning we pay a lot more, is a pay reduction.

The parents quite often don't care. You can have 3 generations of a family living on benefits and I have seen parents making fun of kids for wanting to do well at school. A member of staff went to one students house to talk to their parents about very low attendance and they were smacked off their tits!

School discipline has become almost possible in the schools that need it most. It's become almost impossible to exclude a student. I was swore at on a regular basis, a student was given detention for squaring up to me and offering me a fight. I have seen furniture being thrown at female members of staff and the culprit was excluded for 3 days!!

The schools are under pressure from the DfE so have to be 'inclusive'. The policy of Every Child Matters means that even though there are two boys in the class completely destroying the lesson for everyone else you can't kick them out. they matter as much as everybody else and it's the teachers fault for not making the lesson engaging enough for them.

This is just not just the Tories. Give is bad for education and is dismantling the national curriculum but they are carrying on what labour started!

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. It is symptomatic (imho) of a society that has been encouraged not to take responsibility for itself. Parents don't have respect for the teaching profession, and that is reflected in the attitude of their children. And those parents are the ones who were children of the 1980s. And so we get a self perpetuating downward spiral.

It isn't just the teaching profession either, many policemen would say the same, there is little respect for authority and a disregard of the rule of law.

The right claim this is symptomatic of a broken society where hard work and aspirational values are objects of derision. The left would say that it the fight back of the disadvantaged.

[TheAnimus]

The fact that most teachers, nurses and civil servants do a fantastic job falls on deaf ears amongst these right wingers.

Where did you go to school?

Looking back to my first year of secondary school, I'll grade the teaching staff.
English -> F
Maths.1 -> B - could have tried harder
Maths.2 -> C - Failed anyone who wasn't naturally enclined to maths, I remember him dressing down some kid who couldn't grasp mean vs median average, rather than perhaps realising he was in need of help.
Sciences.1 -> A+ - Great bloke, found time for everyone in the class be they top, middle or bottom. Frequently gave seperate assignments tailoured to their teir, in a class of 35.
Sciences.2 -> B - would have been an A if it was a smaller class I feal.
German -> E - absolutely useless, but gets an extra point as the class was warm. He never understood how a child learns.
PE -> F - I'm very lucky I wasn't short, bullying on physical ability was posatively encouraged. Turned out to be a nonce.
Geography -> C - clearly was just going through the motions
History -> C - this is a hard one, if you were smart he was an A, if you weren't he was useless.
DT -> A - Pretended to be mad as a hatter, children who were a bit behind were able to accomplish, develop and grow, children who were ahead had challanging problems and things to accomplish.
Music -> F - Guy had a nervious breakdown, shouldn't have been near children, did not get his job on merrit, got it because of who he knew.

I think it's fair for me to do this, not just because I've done some teaching myself, in fact I nearly became a teacher working with children who suffer from learning disabilities. But because of my experiances going through the state schooling system really put in black and white the differences between the great teachers, and the piss poor ones. There is definately still an attitude amoungst many; Those who can't, teach.

So I would say that in fact its most of those teachers were not really much use. If it had been a private school you'd be questioning where the hell your money was being spent. But in a state school you can't really do that.

This was all during the new labour money splerge in schools.

If we can't admit that we've got problems with our education system, when compared to say the Taiwanese, we're going to really struggle and get left behind, or at best create an education based class system like the USAs.

[Willzzz]

You shouldn't take it so personally, Preacher. What you're seeing here is a classic modus operandi from right wingers undermining civil servants, teachers, nurses & benefit claimants in an attempt to reduce numbers/burden on the state. The fact that most teachers, nurses and civil servants do a fantastic job falls on deaf ears amongst these right wingers.

Yes most teachers do a good job, but that doesn't mean that the system as a whole is working. It is often schools and hospitals that are failing as institutions despite a heroic effort from many staff members.

There is no attempt to downsize education or to reduce numbers of teachers. Education is one of the very few areas of the budget that has been protected.

[b0redom]

Probably will make myself really unpopular now, but I'm a governor on the board of a school which has recently gone into special measures. There does seems to be a political push towards moving all schools to academies and that's one of the reasons that a lot of schools are being marked far more harshly by OFSTED. With this status change comes a LOT of extra pressure on staff.

A number of the reasons for the school I work with being put into special measures are valid. Some teachers were under performing and others overinflating grades so that they would be seen to be performing well despite the fact that they weren't. I found it a bit incredible that teachers were not observed on a regular basis so that they could be coached etc. Now that all of these issues (and others) have been identified and strategies put in place to resolve them the school is on the way out of special measures. This simply wouldn't have happened in the private sector. People would have been put on performance improvement plans / fired etc.

There is a tendancy for all people to whinge about how stressful their job/life is. As a private sector employee I have absolutely no hope whatsoever of the sort of pension a teacher has (final salary) - the amount of cash nominally contributed (there's no fund, current workers pay for past workers and the rest is topped up by the government) - is way higher than I could ever hope to put in. I also don't have the luxury of very extended holidays.

All that being said, there is NO way I'd consider teaching. It's not so much dealing with the kids, but as the OP said - the parents unrealistic expectations. "Of course little Johnny can't be to blame. He's mummy's little angel." etc, and schools really have very limited powers to deal with violent and disruptive children.

[Top_gun]

Yes most teachers do a good job, but that doesn't mean that the system as a whole is working. It is often schools and hospitals that are failing as institutions despite a heroic effort from many staff members.

There is no attempt to downsize education or to reduce numbers of teachers. Education is one of the very few areas of the budget that has been protected.

So banks & utility companies aren't failing institutions?

[Willzzz]

Why is that in any way a helpful thing to bring to this debate?

Why the sudden desire to change the subject? Is education not an important enough topic?

[TheAnimus]

So banks & utility companies aren't failing institutions?

Some are, everyone admits it, its easy to judge this, and actions are taken to change it. Plenty aren't, its easy to tell and see.

Lets do the same with state employees?

[Preacher]

@b0redom in the schools I have worked at you got observed every term and if you didn't get at least a good you got observed more and 'coaching' offered. The problem was the senior management didn't use it as a process to help staff but as a stick o beat them with. They could say hey we're doing our bit but you teachers are rubbish!

That would ignore the fact over 100 languages were spoke at my last school, there was more non English speaking than English speaking students and there was 3 support staff to help with translating for the entire school!!

Add in about 50% special educational needs from dyslexia to way up the autistic spectrum, 70% free school meals and you can see why the teachers were failing. You can't succeed in that situation without the right support.

Senior management blamed the teachers while they didn't have policies in place to deal with poor behaviour or to support the teachers!

I had to mime to kids on a regular basis who didn't speak any English, had never been to school before, couldn't read their own language and I didn't have any translation facilities available. How are you suppose to get them through their gcse's??

The senior management was under pressure because they are judged on the pass rate alone. we have no chance compared to a school in a nice middle class area. Schools in deprived areas are on a hiding to nothing from the start. They shouldn't all be measure with the same stick but they are. That's something the Tories did bring in.

They are also expecting junior school teachers to start teaching programming. Most teachers struggle with anything past PowerPoint so I don't know how that's going to work out..

[Preacher]

The animus - schools have changed completely in the last 10 years, even the last 5. It's completely different to even when people in their mid 20's went to school

[wasabi]

The senior management was under pressure because they are judged on the pass rate alone. we have no chance compared to a school in a nice middle class area. Schools in deprived areas are on a hiding to nothing from the start. They shouldn't all be measure with the same stick but they are. That's something the Tories did bring in.

Problem of poor discipline won't be touched by the 'everybody is great/equal' socialists, but the Tories dare not go there or they'll get accused of being child-beating fascists by the usual idiot press. So it goes unsolved. Bad kids need removed from the class and a sliding scale of bad stuff happening to them as punishment.

There are plenty of rubbish teachers - plenty of good ones too. Teachers tend to form a defensive circle any time measures are brought in the weed out the underperformers though. In adult vocational training courses there are usually feedback forms - it is a pity kids are likely to be too vindictive to fill in such things effectively, though it might be part of a better feedback cycle (plus grades, plus external assessment / peer review).

[TheAnimus]

The animus - schools have changed completely in the last 10 years, even the last 5. It's completely different to even when people in their mid 20's went to school

I'm not saying they haven't.

I'm just saying that a lot of teachers who I had, are people who shouldn't be teaching. They wouldn't be working long in a coffee shop with the attitude they had to their work. If teachers are some golden calf that we can't critique, we're really going to mess up.

I also think the political nature of schooling, of league tables etc is insane.

Personally I think we should have streamed schooling, specialist schools and the like, rather than a case of who's parents can afford a nice postcode whilst we pretend all kids are 100% identical because we live in some bizzare socialist utopia, and don't you dare say otherwise.

The fact that people now go to uni, without even setting foot on the campus, an interview is a two way process, it should help the candidate know what courses are right for them, which institutes they want to go to. Despite it being three years of life, in excess of twenty grand for most, we don't do this.

So much is wrong, and so much has gotten a lot worse lately, but hey, at least we've got some really expensive new buildings we'll be still paying off in 20 years time.

[Willzzz]

Preacher

What would you do if you were in charge? How could we actually improve the situation?

[b0redom]

@b0redom in the schools I have worked at you got observed every term and if you didn't get at least a good you got observed more and 'coaching' offered. The problem was the senior management didn't use it as a process to help staff but as a stick o beat them with. They could say hey we're doing our bit but you teachers are rubbish!

That's not local management per se. That's the new OFSTED framework. There is no satisfactory any more. All staff are expected to be 'good'.

That would ignore the fact over 100 languages were spoke at my last school,

Sorry, but I call BS. I couldn't even give you 100 separate languages, even if you include the obscure ones like S. American Quetchua, which makes me doubt:

Add in about 50% special educational needs from dyslexia to way up the autistic spectrum, 70% free school meals and you can see why the teachers were failing. You can't succeed in that situation without the right support.

In any case unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about having kids with special needs/school meals (I presume that you're linking free school meals to disadvantaged kids?) As Willzzz said, what would you do to fix this?

Senior management blamed the teachers while they didn't have policies in place to deal with poor behaviour or to support the teachers!

Then they will be found very lacking during an OFSTED inspection. Disciplinary procedures, bullying, racism etc are all required by law, and if you don't have policies in place as a senior manager you're in for some VERY uncomfortable conversations.

I had to mime to kids on a regular basis who didn't speak any English, had never been to school before, couldn't read their own language and I didn't have any translation facilities available. How are you suppose to get them through their gcse's??

I feel your pain, but again, how would you fix the problem if it were up to you?

The senior management was under pressure because they are judged on the pass rate alone. we have no chance compared to a school in a nice middle class area. Schools in deprived areas are on a hiding to nothing from the start. They shouldn't all be measure with the same stick but they are. That's something the Tories did bring in.

Other than abolishing league tables altogether I'm not sure how you can fix this. Primary schools (the bit I have experience in) are judged by grade progression - ie each student is expected to make a set amount of progress rather than hit an end point. Again - how would you fix this? You can't just look at a school and say - well the input is a bunch of kids with special needs and 1st generation immigrants who don't speak any English. How would you weight it? How would you compare teachers in similar schools? They are never going to all be the same.

They are also expecting junior school teachers to start teaching programming. Most teachers struggle with anything past PowerPoint so I don't know how that's going to work out..

When I was at school we used Turtle etc, and that was 20 years ago (man I'm getting old). As long as there is training offered prior to having to deliver the curriculum, basic programming concepts are not really any more difficult that basic cooking or basic maths. Hopefully this will start to kill of the idea that 'I don't do computers. Isn't that so funny.'

[Preacher]

Only a quick post because been up all night with little one!

I don't need to lie, there are over 100 languages spoken in my last school.

I should probably explained better but there are policies it's just they are not enforced.

Under labour there was value added benchmark. If a child started in y7 at level 1 its going to be hard to obtain 5 gcse's. so they were measured on progress made. The Tories abolished this.

I don't have all the answers but funding for more support staff to help teachers in challenging school or more teachers to enable smaller classes.

I have taught classes of 26 with one English born kid and another Pakistani kid who spoke perfect English. That's a lot of non English speaking children to try and teach!


Maybe specialist schools children go in their first year to learn intensive English and bring them upto a base standard?

I'm not sure of the solution but I know my school was a pretty extreme example

[Willzzz]

There is still a value added measure, go check the performance tables.
In fact the Tories actually expanded this so you can see the VA for low, middle and high attainers (from KS2).

Research has shown that support staff can even have a negative effect as it can reduce contact time with the actual teacher.
More teachers might be nice, but it's important that these are good teachers. If you just hire more teachers you start scraping the bottom of the barrel and this will only make standards fall.

Research has shown that a good teacher makes a more positive difference than smaller classes. Anecdotally we have TheAnimus' science teacher who was by far the best teacher he had, despite the class size being huge. I've encountered plenty of similar examples, in fact often the best teachers voluntarily take extra students as they know they can get the best out of them.

Your school does sound pretty extreme, the vast majority of teachers probably have an easier time than you.

[wasabi]

Maybe specialist schools children go in their first year to learn intensive English and bring them upto a base standard?

The real fix long-term is to change social policy so that immigrants MUST speak good English from day 1 and make a commitment, subject to deportation, that it will be their children's first language. Flappy-headed PC types love to bang on about how much value immigrants bring to Bristish society. In many cases it is true, but you can't conveniently ignore the hidden costs and disruption.