Should parents be held legally responsible for not vaccinating their children?

[directhex]

But who are you other than just "some guy on the internet"? Why does it have to be "Pro vaccine" vs "Anti Vaccine"? Not everything is always one thing or the other. You don't always have to be Enemies or Friends. There is a grey area. Some people trust the government, some people don't, some people are not quite sure what to think sometimes. Do you know how crazed it sounds when people are like "INJECT YOUR KIDS WITH THESE CHEMICALS! WE DON'T CARE IF YOU UNDERSTAND THEM! NEITHER DO WE REALLY. JUST DO IT!". It's just not plausible to a lot of people.

"I don't have a clue about topic A, but I don't trust the so-called experts with their so-called degrees and so-called years in the field, because they're evil tricksters!"

On topics where I don't have domain-specific knowledge, or don't care to have that knowledge, I subcontract my understanding to people with more training - I don't know how to fix my car, for example, I get someone to deal with that for me. I don't have a postgraduate degree in microbiology with immunology either - I subcontract my understanding of that topic.

And when I'm selecting my sources, I generally go with the 99% of qualified "people think A not B group", and not the "it's all lies made up by the lizard people to turn us into slaves when they invade!" people, the same way I trust mechanics more if they say "your car runs on petrol" than "your card runs on fairy farts".

If it were down to the antivaxers, shouting the arguments which have already been trotted out in this thread, then millions would still be dying a year from smallpox. Maybe that's desirable for you, but it isn't for me. I'd like to increase the number of fatal infectious diseases which are eradicated, not welcome previously almost-gone-in-the-UK ones back with open arms.

[ZaO]

"I don't have a clue about topic A, but I don't trust the so-called experts with their so-called degrees and so-called years in the field, because they're evil tricksters!"

On topics where I don't have domain-specific knowledge, or don't care to have that knowledge, I subcontract my understanding to people with more training - I don't know how to fix my car, for example, I get someone to deal with that for me. I don't have a postgraduate degree in microbiology with immunology either - I subcontract my understanding of that topic.

And when I'm selecting my sources, I generally go with the 99% of qualified "people think A not B group", and not the "it's all lies made up by the lizard people to turn us into slaves when they invade!" people, the same way I trust mechanics more if they say "your car runs on petrol" than "your card runs on fairy farts".

If it were down to the antivaxers, shouting the arguments which have already been trotted out in this thread, then millions would still be dying a year from smallpox. Maybe that's desirable for you, but it isn't for me. I'd like to increase the number of fatal infectious diseases which are eradicated, not welcome previously almost-gone-in-the-UK ones back with open arms.

We all trust things to other people when we don't have the knowledge ourselves. Ever had a mechanic lie to you about what's wrong with your car and what the solution is? Happens every day. Not many people are claiming mechanics are some evil lizard people, but just some of them are lying to make a buck. They abuse your trust. But some are decent also right. So to use your own analogy of the subject, it's the same thing with vaccines. As I said before - some people don't trust, or don't know if they can trust the government sometimes. You telling me that no scientists and their "opinions" could ever possibly be bought and paid for by someone with an evil agenda, or profit to make from a pharmaceutical company? You sure the majority opinion can't be wrong? The majority opinion apparently used to be that the world was flat. Now it's significantly different.

Now in fairness, the science community is not quite the same as trusting a mechanic. So not the best analogy. But if there are tests being done, in which the results are not available. That is terrible for decision making. Then even beyond that, you have to appreciate other peoples outlook on life. Some people want to live cruelty free and pure, as much as is possible. It is their god given right to do so. We can't just allow the government to inject whatever they want into whoever they want. We are not products, but humans. It is up to us to decide what we do and don't put in our bodies. No one else. The government has already gone to far regarding that.

[directhex]

Then even beyond that, you have to appreciate other peoples outlook on life. Some people want to live cruelty free and pure, as much as is possible.

You are not making a decision for yourself or your child. You are making a decision for every immunocompromised person you ever come into contact with.

[ZaO]

You are not making a decision for yourself or your child. You are making a decision for every immunocompromised person you ever come into contact with.

And the results of that decision depends on what these vaccines actually do. You're doing the same thing when you vaccinate your child. And by choosing vaccines, you are supporting pharmaceutical companies who's bloody profits come from experiments that involve torturing animals. By choosing not to support these companies, you are doing the opposite.

[Mrs Hex]

Oh so now comes the animal testing argument.

Until there is a viable long term alternative we are stuck with animal testing for MEDICAL purposes

With relatives with diabetes I am grateful for medication that keeps them alive - only possible as the result of animal testing.

[ZaO]

Oh so now comes the animal testing argument.

Until there is a viable long term alternative we are stuck with animal testing for MEDICAL purposes

With relatives with diabetes I am grateful for medication that keeps them alive - only possible as the result of animal testing.

Everything you say sounds so biased in favour of your own outlook on life. And yes, how dare I bring up animal testing. You don't give a damn about them so it doesn't matter right?

[TheAnimus]

And the results of that decision depends on what these vaccines actually do. You're doing the same thing when you vaccinate your child. And by choosing vaccines, you are supporting pharmaceutical companies who's bloody profits come from experiments that involve torturing animals. By choosing not to support these companies, you are doing the opposite.

Because their profits come from the torturing of humans instead?

Without vivisection we would be much worse off, most of this work has been done without bloody profits. In fact the reason Polio isn't a threat any-more was due to research which involved animals only to be given away for free. Thanks to that Polio has mostly been wiped off the map. How many children in leg braces or iron lungs do we see today!

[Mrs Hex]

The irony of your statement considering one of my hobbies is laughable. I'm smack bang behind banning animal testing for cosmetic purposes, and would support banning for medical testing if there was any other option.

Currently there is not.

[Butcher]

And the results of that decision depends on what these vaccines actually do. You're doing the same thing when you vaccinate your child. And by choosing vaccines, you are supporting pharmaceutical companies who's bloody profits come from experiments that involve torturing animals. By choosing not to support these companies, you are doing the opposite.

You'd rather humans die painfully than animals? I don't think you'll find too much support for that view (outside of the PETA fringe).

[ZaO]

Because their profits come from the torturing of humans instead?

Without vivisection we would be much worse off, most of this work has been done without bloody profits. In fact the reason Polio isn't a threat any-more was due to research which involved animals only to be given away for free. Thanks to that Polio has mostly been wiped off the map. How many children in leg braces or iron lungs do we see today!

In your opinion we would be much worse off. Not in everyone's opinion. Personally I think we would be much better off if we can move away from such barbaric behaviour. Maybe we should consider what is in our food and water supply that may be causing so many medical problems. Wouldn't be so much of a need for all these "cures" if we did. But that's not profitable for the drug companies.

The irony of your statement considering one of my hobbies is laughable. I'm smack bang behind banning animal testing for cosmetic purposes, and would support banning for medical testing if there was any other option.

Currently there is not.

You still don't get what I'm saying. I can see you love to share your opinions on everything, and I'm being kind by saying "share". But the reason I even mentioned animal testing was to try and give some people an insight into why some other people may not want to receive vaccinations. I was trying to demonstrate how it's not all about whether the vaccinations themselves are a good thing or not. You just seem to refuse to accept different outlooks, different philosophies on life. Trying to live without causing any unnecessary suffering is a beautiful practice. It's a way of life that doesn't always involve putting yourself first. It involves personal sacrifices. Can you get to grips with such a concept?

[Agent]

Everything you say sounds so biased in favour of your own outlook on life. And yes, how dare I bring up animal testing. You don't give a damn about them so it doesn't matter right?

I'm curious - have you ever taken any medication in your life?

What is the viable alternative to animal testing?

[TheAnimus]

In your opinion we would be much worse off. Not in everyone's opinion. Personally I think we would be much better off if we can move away from such barbaric behaviour. Maybe we should consider what is in our food and water supply that may be causing so many medical problems. Wouldn't be so much of a need for all these "cures" if we did. But that's not profitable for the drug companies.

The vast majority of people eat meat and happily benefit from animal testing.

The point is you don't want too.

And you fail to acknowledge how that damages herd immunity.

I also still don't think you've read the whole thread.

[Agent]

This is rapidly going to go down the PETA / ALF route.....Let's not give those nutters the attention they crave if so.

[directhex]

Now in fairness, the science community is not quite the same as trusting a mechanic. So not the best analogy.

Actually, rather better than you realise.

Yeah, some mechanics are crooks out to make a buck. Yeah, some medications are dodgy and sold when they shouldn't be. But at the same time, even the dodgy mechanics acknowledge basic concepts like the functioning of the internal combustion engine - and even dodgy pharma companies acknowledge basic immunology. Ans just as there are some who claim to understand cars but say cars run on wishes and hope, there are those who claim to understand immunology but ignore the absolute basics of the topic too.

[ZaO]

I'm curious - have you ever taken any medication in your life?

What is the viable alternative to animal testing?

Yes I have. One alternative is don't test on animals. Might not be viable to you, but it is to others. Definitely viable to animals. Testing on humans is another.

The vast majority of people eat meat and happily benefit from animal testing.

The point is you don't want too.

And you fail to acknowledge how that damages herd immunity.

I also still don't think you've read the whole thread.

Yes I know. It's very safe to be with the majority isn't it? Lots of people to back you up, less opposition to your opinions.

You don't actually know what my lifestyle is, do you? You see, you guys are still being biased. You think I'm arguing my life outlook against yours. I am merely trying to demonstrate different views on life, and how they affect peoples decisions. Why something that works for you, doesn't work for everyone else. The point is not at all that I don't want to. "Herd immunity"? Lovely terminology. The affects of these vaccines are still clearly debated. Ignorance is much more harmful to us all.

[directhex]

Trying to live without causing any unnecessary suffering is a beautiful practice. It's a way of life that doesn't always involve putting yourself first. It involves personal sacrifices. Can you get to grips with such a concept?

tl;dr: if you have diabetes, I hope you die, since your survival stems from experiments on pigs