Should parents be held legally responsible for not vaccinating their children?

[phil4]

Just to verify, you think the country's healthcare decisions should be made on the basis of a paper withdrawn for fraud, and not the tens of thousands of experts in their field who support what we do already?

No, absolutely not. I think a stated I should be able to make my own choice about my treatment (and my child's until he can do himself).

The original post suggested the government should do that for me, my examples and discussion were all presented to show that there are many factors in the decision. I'd rather I made it for me/my child rather than the government.

[directhex]

Not saying any of those is related to autism, but still, given the above, and the 1 in 1000 chance of fits 6-11 days after the jab, why shouldn't I be allowed a choice?

Because it's not about you.

Not everyone is able to be vaccinated. Those too young, too old, or too frail, to deal with it. And the vaccine wears off for some people, or doesn't take for some people.

But that doesn't matter. Because if enough people are vaccinated, then a few outliers don't get infected - there's nobody for them to get infected by. There's a minimum level, above which, vaccination provides benefits for everyone, even if not everyone is vaccinated. That's "herd immunity"

Morons "opting out" for spurious bull**** reasons have lowered the level of general vaccination in the population below the critical minimum - meaning herd immunity doesn't work. Every selfish parent who doesn't get their kids vaccinated means the risk of a different baby dying, or being permanently blinded, by measles, as an example.

[phil4]

Morons is a bit harsh, and probably wrong.

As I said and have shown there are a few risks, and I'd prefer to keep the choice.

I did chose immunisation.

[directhex]

Morons is a bit harsh, and probably wrong.

The original link cites homeopathy. "moron" is the best word to use here. I could provide a variety of synonyms if you prefer?

[directhex]

I'm fine with the government not "forcing" it, by the way.

As long as schools and nurseries are permitted to forbid opt-out children from attending, without a valid doctor's note.

[phil4]

That's works for me too.

[TheAnimus]

As long as schools and nurseries are permitted to forbid opt-out children from attending, without a valid doctor's note.

Hell no.

For many children with dumb parents, schools and nurseries are the best chance they have in life.

[peterb]

I'm fine with the government not "forcing" it, by the way.

As long as schools and nurseries are permitted to forbid opt-out children from attending, without a valid doctor's note.

I'd agree with that, it is about protecting the rest of the children - even though they may have been inoculated.

Hell no.

For many children with dumb parents, schools and nurseries are the best chance they have in life.

True, but then it becomes a parental choice.

[directhex]

Hell no.

For many children with dumb parents, schools and nurseries are the best chance they have in life.

The morons can have their own moron schools for kids to infect each other and die. That's their choice.

[Agent]

It sounds like you prefer the government to force decision for you rather than allowing your to chose, if so I doubt a few words as to my view will change yours.

I can choose to speed on the motorway, but I have to accept the consequences of doing so if caught.

There are times that the government needs to make a decision so society is fair(er) for everyone. I firmly believe that vaccinations fall into this camp. It's utterly crazy that in 2013 we have kids not being vaccinated due to ignorance. Vaccines are not just a cocktail of a few drugs that they're jabbing into people - they undergo huge clinical trials and have constant monitoring even when considered 'safe'.

So yes, in some cases the government needs to force a decision on people, because people are stupid.

[aidanjt]

The morons can have their own moron schools for kids to infect each other and die. That's their choice.

The moronlets at moron school wont just infest other moron kids, though. They put everyone at risk, and we wont be able to drive measles to extinction like we did with smallpox and hopefully soon polio without being much more aggressive.

[peterb]

A friend of mine started his career as. GP in South Wales when the MMR vaccine was introduced. The local press lead an active campaign against the vaccine at the time.

The consequences are now being seen.

(Btw, can we moderate the terms used please. 'Ignorant' is sufficient to describe those who are unaware of the facts - or unable to appreciate the relative risks of vaccination compared with non-vaccination. I must admit at the time finding it difficult in deciding whether my daughter should have the MMR vaccine - although we decided that she would. Much of the anti-vaccine furore was whipped up by the sections of national press (notably the red tops) at the time, as I referred to above)

[TheAnimus]

The morons can have their own moron schools for kids to infect each other and die. That's their choice.

But is that fair for the kids? I mean we don't allow children to live in poverty so as to not punish them for their parents mistakes, to provide a minimum level of chance in life.

I still don't get why describing a segment of the population by a term referring to those who are 30 or more points IQ below normal is rude, but there are many parents who are definitely towards the lower end of the chart. The thing is we really mustn't punish children for that. In the same way that someone who rapes their children, because it is their religious belief, such as those who have a strange take on Mormonism. To do it because its 'their choice', to allow such choice with regards to the child's health is equally immoral.

[wasabi]

Hmm. I'm not 100% sure they should be forced, although I can see a good case. Perhaps if kid is asked 'do you want the jab' they can override their own parents' stupid choice? Difficult to do in pracitce I know... Perhaps if they become ill with something they could have been vaccinated against, then hospitals should be perfectly within their rights to tell them to clear off when they get ill.

[peterb]

A lot of the reluctance by parents to have their children vaccinated with MMR was the publicity given to the subsequently discredited paper published in 'The Lancet'.

Obviously it made a good story at the time. The subsequent discrediting was less lucrative and received less publicity, and Government information is often labelled as propaganda (as we see from some posts on other subjects here when the conspiracy theorists get going )

There is an interesting (though lengthy) article on Wikipaedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

[peterb]

Hmm. I'm not 100% sure they should be forced, although I can see a good case. Perhaps if kid is asked 'do you want the jab' they can override their own parents' stupid choice? Difficult to do in pracitce I know... Perhaps if they become ill with something they could have been vaccinated against, then hospitals should be perfectly within their rights to tell them to clear off when they get ill.

Would you refuse treatment to those who have heart disease or lung cancer because they chose to smoke, over-eat, or develop schizophrenia or other mental illnesses through drug abuse, or liver disease through alcohol abuse?