Firefighters strike?

[Andeh13]

...they are on a 4 hour ''early warning shot'' strike over the terms of having to work till 60 to collect their pension.

I thought I was going mad when I semi-heard it on the radio this morning and needed a double take to make sure I was right in hearing them striking over being forced to work till 60. I (Professional Engineer, private sector) will no doubt work till I am 65 at the earliest so am furious over them complaining.

They cite not being fit enough in their late 50s as a risk to their pension, but the police/military manage it. Weekly exercise & eating healthy is not beyond any 50 year old, and that's all that is required to stay fit & healthy. My Dad manages it without any issues and he is very late 50s!

If they can't do their job,, then what about answering phones, training others, supervising from their 'home base' - not every job has to be running up & down ladders surely?

I am so fed up of unions these days, public sector vs private sector seem to be worlds apart. Imagine a Christmas without a tube strike? hah! Sooner we automate the lot the better!!

Any other thoughts or opinions?

[pollaxe]

Some friends of mine are firefighters. I don't believe they should be allowed to strike, however much I might sympathise on some of the issues they're complaining about.

We just agree to disagree on it but I honestly don't think any emergency services should be allowed to strike.

[wasabi]

We just agree to disagree on it but I honestly don't think any emergency services should be allowed to strike.

Everyone else is... how else should their pay/conditions be negotiated? I think it is quite good that these issues stare us in the face sometimes. At the moment we have this wonderful wall of make-believe going on with police / doctors / nurses / emergency services / military / teachers in general. They get treated like saints because somehow they're doing it for the good of the country - but we're not allowed to question the perks and benefits. A lot of problems would get fixed if they were treated like any other regular paid job and not 'special'. Sack the rubbish ones, incentivise being good, dump the mediocre job for life mindset and treat them genuinely like professionals.

[virtuo]

It's a pretty soft strike - from what I heard on the news, non-union firefighters will still be working. All emergency calls will be answered and if necessary the volunteer fire service and, in extreme cases, the military will be brought in. If it wasn't in the news, nobody would even know it was happening.

Edit: I've also heard that if something REALLY kicks off, they'll stop the strike to deal with it..

I can sort of sympathise with them on the age thing - I have a nice desk job that I can easily do to retirement. My brother is a floorlayer and at 27 he is already suffering physically from it. But that's not to say they should just be able to retire early. They just need to adapt to what they are physically capable of. I'm sure they must have a decent H&S setup, with regular screening to make sure people can effectively do what they need to do.

If my house was burning down I wouldn't want some knackered 60 year olds showing up and struggling up 2 flights of stairs to save my beautiful servers. They could easily be doing desk work, training new recruits, going round putting smoke alarms in for people and setting fire to chip pans in supermarket car parks. Or they could easily go in to consultancy, I've known a few ex firefighters do this.

[peterb]

Everyone else is... how else should their pay/conditions be negotiated?

Ah, good old confrontational 'negotiation' - "Give us what we want or we'll go on strike"

How about negotiation on supply demand? Pay the appropriate rate to staff the service as required. It has been done with those sevices deemed as essential with recruitment bonuses and higher pay awards.

I think it is quite good that these issues stare us in the face sometimes. At the moment we have this wonderful wall of make-believe going on with police / doctors / nurses / emergency services / military / teachers in general. They get treated like saints because somehow they're doing it for the good of the country - but we're not allowed to question the perks and benefits.

Of the services you quote, only nurses and teachers and doctors can go on strike. The other that are not certainly do get perks though - the perk of putting your life on the line, and for military personnel, there was the perk of having your coffin paraded through the town of Royal Wooton Bassett.

A lot of problems would get fixed if they were treated like any other regular paid job and not 'special'. Sack the rubbish ones, incentivise being good, dump the mediocre job for life mindset and treat them genuinely like professionals.

There are disciplinary procedures in place for discharging military personnel who are unsuitable (and that includes failure of mandatory fitness tests. You will also find that police, doctors and nurses also have professional standards bodies (The General Medical Council, General Nursing Council, Independent Police Complaints Commission as well as internal disciplinary procedures)

But if the perks appeal to you, why not join one of these pampered services?

[TheAnimus]

Everyone else is... how else should their pay/conditions be negotiated?

Except for you know, the police, the army etc.

[TooNice]

Weekly exercise & eating healthy is not beyond any 50 year old, and that's all that is required to stay fit & healthy. My Dad manages it without any issues and he is very late 50s!

If they can't do their job,, then what about answering phones, training others, supervising from their 'home base' - not every job has to be running up & down ladders surely?

I reckon that those at the forefront of fire fighting needs to be more than just "fit & healthy" as measured by the norm. And it is also fair to say that not everyone age equally even all else being equal.

I also wonder (have no idea) whether it is practical / sensible to shift a large portion of the front line fire fighting force to less physical supporting role. You'll still have to pay them, and you'll still have to fill their positions with new firefighters unless you are happy to have less front line firefighters.

Based solely on the original post, I actually have some sympathy for those on strike. Which is a first (I tend to be against tube strikes, and was against the BA strikes too). To sway me, you will need to convince me that they are already getting quite generously paid (salary and/or benefits) for what they do. I do take the point about the police, but I'll need a bit more than that.

[wasabi]

Ah, good old confrontational 'negotiation' - "Give us what we want or we'll go on strike"

How about negotiation on supply demand? Pay the appropriate rate to staff the service as required. It has been done with those sevices deemed as essential with recruitment bonuses and higher pay awards.

Supply and demand is what is driving the government's decision to up the pension age. There are plenty who would take the job on those terms.

The other that are not certainly do get perks though - the perk of putting your life on the line, and for military personnel, there was the perk of having your coffin paraded through the town of Royal Wooton Bassett.

So the chance of getting killed / injured isn't somehow apparent to people joining the army?

There are disciplinary procedures in place for discharging military personnel who are unsuitable (and that includes failure of mandatory fitness tests. You will also find that police, doctors and nurses also have professional standards bodies (The General Medical Council, General Nursing Council, Independent Police Complaints Commission as well as internal disciplinary procedures)

But if the perks appeal to you, why not join one of these pampered services?

Who said I havn't?

[Saracen]

....
Any other thoughts or opinions?

Yes. I have no sympathy at all. Not one jot.

They are already well ahead of a large proportion of the private sector in that they have ANY pension, and the final salary accrued rights already earned are given statutory protection, and even the revised pension, going forward, is still good.

A few weeks ago there was a proposal on here for me as PM .... in jest, I seriously hope. This is a classic example of why I'd be a diasaster in that job, because my response to this strike would be to introduce these 'firefighters' to a new meaning of the word 'fire', that being Alan Sugar's Apprentice version. And don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, you greedy bleeps.

That's my opinion.

And yes, I have read the details of the proposed pension changes from .gov.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...inal-agreement

[adidan]

I (Professional Engineer, private sector) will no doubt work till I am 65 at the earliest so am furious over them complaining.

Ok, for starters there aren't as many backroom positions for them to go into as there are in many other professions.

Secondly, I don't begrudge people who put their lives on the line in course of their daily job an early retirement date.

Strikes are generally a last resort, you want to be furious about anything be furious about Governments squandering money and not spending it on necessary and valued aspects of society. £6billion on an NHS computer system that won't be used is a good place to start...

It's working though, get all us minions to fight amongst ourselves about who is better off than who and we all take our eye off the ball. Simple psychology but politically very effective.

[wasabi]

Except for you know, the police, the army etc.

In my head I'd typed something like Everyone in the private sector, and even said something about GCHQ. In reality, not so much. Brain<->finger interface issues again.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Out of interest is the pay quite high for firefighters and are their pensions as a result high and what are the risks?? I think this is what we need to consider.

There are some other jobs which,have get paid a lot like oil rig workers,which require very high physical fitness and are risky too.

Moreover,on a side note would we want 65 to 70 year old firefighters?? I am not trying to be ageist here,but people need to think a bit about various jobs,before the old Yorkshire men's sketch gets broken out,for the millionth time making the Daily Mail proud.

I would expect that with the type of work involved,the amount of active years would be much shorter and you would want physically strong people to do it,and if anything it means it will favour younger people. I doubt many firefighters would doing such a job until 65 to 70 just due to physical demands of it,unless they move into adminstrative areas,which probably is a tiny percentage of jobs in that profession anyway.

It is a very physical profession,so ultimately its not like people sitting on their bum programming or in a bank or working in a lab or office,which requires some walking and hardly any heavy lifting. Sure you might have long hours,but physically it is nowhere as demanding and you could probably easily work until your 70s if your mind is still sharp. Its the body that usually is the first part to start going anyway and that is something you need to consider if you needed rescueing from a fire(or someone you care about).

[wasabi]

Ok, for starters there aren't as many backroom positions for them to go into as there are in many other professions.

Some facts and figures to chew on.

They're desperately trying to employ more women though. While there are some strong fit women, running the percentages game I'd rather have an older bloke carry me out.

Also there are a lot of jobs like Fire Safety Audits (see section 4 of pdf) which older people could do.

[pollaxe]

Interestingly, one of my firefighter friends is a woman. She's incredibly fit (in the exercising sense) but she's also tiny. I once asked her if she thought she could carry me out of a burning building and down a ladder. (I'm built like the proverbial brick outhouse.) She said no.

I do know that, like many other jobs, it's massively over-subcribed in terms of applicants. Another friend has been trying to get in for years.

[HalloweenJack]

oh gosh having to work till your 60 (unlike the 70 year olds who work at B&Q because they don't have much to live on)