Bonehead printer mfg's not using logic

[Rosebud]

So now every MFG has installed chips on their toner cartridges for laser jets which I assume is supposed to be a sorta 'gotcha' to the their customers who have made an initial purchase from them. From now on they assume to have us locked to this 'ball and chain' with nowhere to go.

But the logic fails. With everyone back stabbing their customers, someone's going to see a business and a credibility improvement opportunity in the 'no chip' cartridges, and if they include top quality reproductions in their images renditions for the machine too, they're going to make a killing, and a huge pr spike. Then we'll see ourselves back in the days when you could go to a laser printer, open the drawer, and pore in a liter of toner.

But the backlash will last a long time for the stabbers like Samsung and others. We'll remember the days they tried to pull one over on us.

Your thoughts.

[GoNz0]

considering a high percentage of users are office based technophobes who will forget to reset a toner, or even worst reset the toner and forget to change it leading the the developer becoming empty and me turning up to point out how stupid they are along with a £175 bill or voided warranty as it is not a warranty claim but a stupidity claim. (don't pay the callout after finding out it isn't faulty voids the warranty until paid in full + late fee)

Due to this the cartridge has to tell the printer it is new.

Yes I am a printer engineer.

Also this has gone on for years so I personally doubt things will change considering the 3rd party ink and toner manufacturers copy the chips.

5p for a chip on a £40 toner. whatever.

[Rosebud]

If memory serves me, back in the 70's the laser printers would simply first flash a low toner light, then no toner, and if empty would refuse to budge until filled. Worse case would be a really poor quality printout. Toner bottles on the big machines were litre quantity.

A lot of people are fighting back. Nothing peaks the interest of IC hackers more than hearing something can never be changed. I'm just waiting for these guys to go from the change/discharge the IC circuit route, to the cheaper and more obvious fix, take the chip off the cartridge and epoxy it onto the reader circuit side first(from the back of course).

The machine will see a steady toner quantity, and the bottles can be changed forever. Not new technology either. Since in their wisdom the MFG decided the algorithim is chip based for all toner/printer status, then they are locked in to that system. Prime candidates for the obvious.

[GoNz0]

If memory serves me, back in the 70's the laser printers would simply first flash a low toner light, then no toner, and if empty would refuse to budge until filled. Worse case would be a really poor quality printout. Toner bottles on the big machines were litre quantity.

and then they found out toner could be carcinogenic.

[peterb]

There are two issues here though. One is the use of some form of identity to inform the printer that a cartage has been changed (although that can be done with a variety of sensors).

The other is when the printer will not work unless a toner cartridge with a chip is installed, and that chip is only available on the OEM cartridge, and so locking out third part suppliers. IIRC, the EU acted to make that illegal in Europe.

There are other dubious practices - one was (again IIRC) a printer mfr whose product stopped working when the waste ink bin was full (this was an inkjet). But there was no way an end user could simply reset the error, even if the waste ink pad or tank was changed - it was a version of built in obsolescence. There were ways round it - but they involved a degree of technical know how and downloading a maintenance program.

[scaryjim]

... one was (again IIRC) a printer mfr whose product stopped working when the waste ink bin was full ...

That's an interesting one - doesn't seem to happen on modern inkjets (do they not waste ink any more?), but I was once called out to a "faulty" colour laser printer when I was self-employed and since I'd never supported one before it took me a while to diagnose that it was just that the waste toner bin was full (iirc on that printer you could simply remove and empty it (carefully!) to reset the fault). When the client complained that I should know about it because that was a printer I'd provided to them, I pointed out that I had strongly advised them against a colour laser printer and only bought it on their specific instruction, against my advice. Which shut them up. But I can see how not documenting something like that could very easily lead to people replacing the printer unnecessarily.

[Andy3536]

That's an interesting one - doesn't seem to happen on modern inkjets (do they not waste ink any more?)

They are still largely made the same, i think this is another thing that has been stopped. The waiste ink never came close to the capacity of the absorbant pads in the bottom of the printers by the time they errored out.

[Lucio]

Printers are the bane of my professional life, the number of times that they go wrong, and require some arcachic combination of hold button A until light 1 flashes 4 times, but not so long as for it to flash 5 times, then depress button B until light 2 flashes twice to actually get them to change the ink over.

Whilst I appreciate that not all printers can feature a MFD to report clear instructions back, whomever thought that holding a button for a certain length of time was a suitable feature instead of actually including multiple buttons is an idiot!

[cookie365]

considering a high percentage of users are office based technophobes who will forget to reset a toner, or even worst reset the toner and forget to change it leading the the developer becoming empty and me turning up to point out how stupid they are along with a £175 bill or voided warranty as it is not a warranty claim but a stupidity claim. (don't pay the callout after finding out it isn't faulty voids the warranty until paid in full + late fee)

Due to this the cartridge has to tell the printer it is new.

Yes I am a printer engineer.

Also this has gone on for years so I personally doubt things will change considering the 3rd party ink and toner manufacturers copy the chips.

5p for a chip on a £40 toner. whatever.

How is this a sign of how 'stupid' people are? What's stupid about not understanding the intricacies of how printers work?

The only stupidity I see here is printers that require users to 'reset' the toner level.

A printer that can't figure out for itself how much toner it has left is a printer made by cretins.

[GoNz0]

Epson did back track on not upholding a warranty claim against damage caused by 3rd party inks/toners due to that ruling.

How is this a sign of how 'stupid' people are? What's stupid about not understanding the intricacies of how printers work?

The only stupidity I see here is printers that require users to 'reset' the toner level.

A printer that can't figure out for itself how much toner it has left is a printer made by cretins.

I am talking about people ignoring a warning because they can't be arsed to swap a toner after being told to, thus leading to damage, you are in my opinion stupid to ignore a warning. for instance a red light means stop does it not?

[cookie365]

No, you're stupid to make a printer that knows it'll get damaged if it carries on printing stuff, and yet carries on printing stuff.

[wasabi]

To be fair I've seen a lot of poor quality prints off recycled toners, but some sort of middle ground needs to exist. It pains me to say it a a free-marketeer, but I think this situation shows that sometimes the 'the market' doesn't work. Like the classic monkey trap, the manufacturers can't let go of the overpriced refill fix.

I think the backlash is that most people now take their photos on SD card to Boots or whatever. Home printing is dying as I see it.

[GoNz0]

no, you're stupid to make a printer that knows it'll get damaged if it carries on printing stuff, and yet carries on printing stuff.

hence them having a chip to prevent that!

and a car that lets you run out of oil, what idiot came up with that ?

[Tumble]

I was going to say the same thing as GoNz0 there... many of my devices don't have chips on the toner - they actually detect the toner levels in 3 ways (sub-hopper, toner/carrier ration & reflectivity). But we can tell if you're using hooky toner - we don't mind if you do (paying for it twice mind) BUT, and here's the rub. If you call us out for a quality issue, and you aint got a genuine toner installed (provided by us), we WILL charge you for the call outside of the service contract (which includes toner )

And the waste toner box on colour machines? yeah they fill up. Not all the toner is transferred onto the paper - mono boxes will just recycle what gets scraped off the drum (the individual colours do that too) but what's on the transfer belt/drum/whatever is mixed and it can't be used again so it gets scraped off and dumped. Usually ends up a very awful purple colour which is damned hard to get out of carpets.....

[scaryjim]

And the waste toner box on colour machines? yeah they fill up. Not all the toner is transferred onto the paper - mono boxes will just recycle what gets scraped off the drum (the individual colours do that too) but what's on the transfer belt/drum/whatever is mixed and it can't be used again so it gets scraped off and dumped. Usually ends up a very awful purple colour which is damned hard to get out of carpets.....

Yeah, I think I remember that (was a lot of years ago now though).

They weren't a great client tbh, but they were the one that put the most work my way, which was kind of important at the time! The whole colour printer argument was just one example of them ignoring the advice they were paying for because they thought they knew everything already....

[Tumble]

Picture the scene... we had an old Ricoh 4506 in bits in the workshop. Waste tank on that was HUGE, and also full. Lifted it out of the back, caught it on the frame and because everything was covered in silicon oil ... dropped it. I had to hoover the stuff out of the air for 20 minutes before I could start on the floor