That might be a bit harsh, Sam, but yeah, on the principle of it, it had certainly crossed my mind, and me and thee can't be the only ones. But I don't think invoking Hitler in an EU debate is a terribly constructive way to conduct what is, after all an extremely serious referendum question, the implications of which are very large indeed.
EDIT - Oh, and I mean the national debate, not this thread. It's not a pop at you, Sam.
TBH we are screwed if we stay in but screwed if we leave.
I guess the question is do you want for screw yourself or let someone else screw you.
I'm still waiting for someone to summarize these 'good concessions' because I don't see them. PeterB echoes my thoughts in that it doesn't seem like anything tangible has actually been conceded.Originally Posted by Saracen
I'm not sure what good concessions you think I mean. I see that Chamberlain photo as suggesting a PM coming from from Europe (the Munich conference for Chamberlain, and Brussels for Cameron) waving a "deal" and pretending it was a great achievement that changed things. I see Cameron's deal as achieving 3/4 of 5/8th of beggar all worth having, and nothing near what he initially said he wanted, let alone what would be needed to convince most sceptics to switch.
And I too pretty much agree entirely with Peter's analysis.
Who is supposed to have been conceding things? I think I'm missing what you mean?
Apparently Boris Johnson is the verge of backing the "Leave" campaign.. Also the PM has said "Brexit would give illusion of sovereignty". Is he conceding we have already lost our sovereignty inside the EU then?
We've lost our sovereignty thanks to the trade agreements putting multinational corporations above nations. All the crowing about the EU and Brussels is just political theatre.
Humans, the only animal stupid enough to pay to live on the planet Earth.
I suspect a number of the cartoonists for the major papers seriously considered a play on "Chamberlain" when Cameron returned brandishing his "Good Deal for Britain". He would certainly deserve the ridicule in that respect. However, I agree that in the wider discussion about EU membership, which is a very serious question, such comparisons are unhelpful.
To expand on Peter B's excellent analysis lets looks at the 4 parts to the deal;
1. Emergency Break - It only applies for seven years and whilst a disincentive for EU citizens moving to the UK for work freedom of movement still applies. So we still do not have full control of our border.
2. Child Benefits - All very exciting that from 2020 child benefit payments will be index linked to the EU. However, guess what? The amount we pay out is SO small in comparison to the total benefits budget it is less than the error in the calculations. In fact it could double and would still not be more than an insignificant blip. At best an ethical victory for consistency.
3. Protection for Non-Euro vs Eurozone - Yay we and the others can force a debate about laws we don't like, but it doesn't mean we can stop them from coming into effect.
4. Ever closer union - So references to ever closer union do not apply to the UK. Essentially these words here don't apply to the UK, but in all other respects the EU can carry on regardless towards a federal Europe with the UK being dragged along behind.
Of course the bigger question is why did he bother with this charade, who exactly does he think he is fooling? Anyone for whom immigration is a big issue won't take the blind bit of notice. Those for whom sovereignty is a big issue won't be even remotely fooled. In fact I suspect he's actually made things harder for himself by handing a big bag of ammunition to his opponents. I mean this is only an opening salvo from Gove*. We haven't even got into the debate proper yet.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02...backing-leave/
* Yes I know some of you think he is the enemy, but he's a darn sight smarter and more progressive than some of the left wing press will admit. Not going to disagree about IDS as even when he has a reasonable idea the implementation is a spectacular cock-up. (Incompetent Duncan Smith will likely be on his political tombstone)
To put things further into perspective you would think that moderately well off golf playing pensioners would be all for staying in the EU to avoid economic instability wrecking their share portfolio's. However, if those at the club where my Dad plays are anything to go by they are a resounding "Leave". To say that they are aggrieved that "this isn't what we signed up for" is quite an understatement.
If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"
I don't think you mean any.Was just saying there's more than just you and Sam questioning the worth of the 'deal'
So Boris is 'leave'. Not a huge surprise, but I don't think it'll hurt him politically.
Had a conversation with a work colleague - who moved to the UK in 2007 from Romania.
His opinion? we should leave. As someone who had to apply for permits to work here , who`s wife was wanted and he wasn't , who now work s 40+ hour week (and is counting the days till he can qualify for dual nationality) - he doesn't like those who followed since 2014 and are work shy. His wife see`s the strain on the NHS (she is a qualified and experienced nurse) from those who arrive with zero language skills , who don't bother at all trying to `fit in`. This isn't the first time I have had such a similar conversation , 10 years ago I was chatting with a friend who is polish - and she said pretty much the same thing back then of the poles ; those who jumped through all the hoops since the 1990`s to move worked hard , whereas those who came after - well you get the idea.
btw in Romania - if you work for 2 years and lose your job you get 1 year of government support ; don't work and pay taxes at all? you get nothing, child benefit is 1/4 of the UK or gemany rate and they get no tax credits;
1 last thing - he said the largest retailer is German owned - food costs are near double the UK yet wages are 1/2 of what a GA who works in a supermarket gets. He said I should go on holiday to Sibui this summer with my family - the flight will cost more than everything else , even on my not so great wages.
Gotcha. Just couldn't quite make sense of it.I don't think you mean any.
I wonder who the "deal" is aimed at, though.
I can't see it convincing any more than very mildly sceptical, if even that.
Undecideds (which at this point are really the critical group) .... maybe. But I think they'd have to be pretty naive to fall for it. Again. Though, I guess many or most will be too young to remember last time.
I have to conclude it's mainly a sort-of fig-leaf for Cameron and adherents to cover their embarrassment at having promised the world, and got table-crumbs, so they dress it up. But if you dress a pig in a tuxedo, silk shirt, handmade shoes and a gold tiepin, it's still a pig. Just a well-dressed one.
I'd have far more respect for Cameron had he just said, up-front, that he thought staying in was the best bet for Britain rather than having talked it up, got shafted, and come back with a Chamberlonian pretense.
At least Chamberlain appeared to have actually believed Hitler. What's Dodgy Dave's excuse, I wonder? Because it seems either the other leaders conned him, in which case he's too gullible to be PM, or he's trying to con us, in which case .... shame on you, Dave.
I wonder how many people will make a decision based on paranoia as opposed to any real facts,especially how sensationalist our media is and tends to be mostly owned by a few right wing and Eurosceptic people. Europe will get blamed for problems whether we are part of the EU or not,and goodness grief I hope we don't move towards a more American way of doing things..oh wait!
Even the big issues with the refugees has barely affected the UK - lots of European countries like Italy,etc have taken the brunt of the influx and the cost and we moan for the little we do. The worst thing is that it was because France and the UK went tried to play BIG BOY war games in Libya and have repeatedly got involved with the US in one Middle East debacle after another,that we have this refugee disaster in the end.
The vast majority of Europe has no interest in getting involved in the Middle East and other areas,but in Europe it is always France and the UK leading the charge to foster even more instability over there,and since we are at the other end of Europe we don't even get the brunt of the fallout.
Its just pathetic we help cause the problem,then really don't do anything to help any of the other European nations which have suffered as a result of our war mongering and negligance and now want to run away after causing the problems in the first place,when the Chickens have come home to roost.
Plus,almost 1 in 10 British people also live and work abroad - at least a million Brits live and work in Europe. People might bitch and moan about Europeans coming here and taking jobs,but it goes both ways for the Brits abroad taking jobs away from the locals of those countries too.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 22-02-2016 at 02:07 AM.
just read a very interesting article that simply says that this deal does not require any treaty changes (not that any are planned anyway) , isn't legally binding anyway and is simply a set of agreements using the current treaty framework - some of which other countries were pushing for anyway (benefits at home country rates for example)
Well quite - we're not in a window for treaty changes so none could be required. You might have secured a 'promise' that when the window opens, people would argue for something, but that's worth exactly.. nothing.
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.
It really, really doesn't add up.
Net migration was 180k last year alone, this is the number of people coming to the UK from the EU less those who left the UK to the EU.
We've a housing crisis in London, it's not remotely helped by having a free movement zone with people from say Slovakia or Hungary or Romania. These people are willing to work at minimum wage or below, living in illegal overcrowding. It's shocking frankly. But I can understand why they would choose to do so, if your homeland has 20% un-employment, an average wage of about £300 per month for your age group, what would you do? The problem is this creates a massive oversupply of unskilled labour.
It's interesting that this narrative has been shut down as 'racist' or 'bigoted', but we are now seeing things like this story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35604776 on the BBC and not just the daily mail.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote