Should Hexus be allowed to discriminate?

[abaxas]

Hi all,

I know this is a bit of a weird question but the 'swearing thread' threw up an interesting point.

Some mod actions may or discriminate due to the current forum rules. Which could put either the mod or the whole site in a bit of a legal mire.

So how can this be fixed? Either we all live with the possibility of someone cashing in on this or the rules are changed so not to discriminate.

What do you think?

[kalniel]

What legal mire? Laws trump any terms and conditions, but I can't see any discrimination in the rules or mod actions.

Legally, discrimination is a problem when applied to race, gender, religion, sexual orientation or age I think, and I can't see anything in the rules or mod actions that even goes near that.

[abaxas]

The other thread has been re-opened so best discuss in there.

[TeePee]

If someone had a diagnosed medical condition that caused them to swear while typing, and prevented them from proof reading, then UK law would require management to make a reasonable accommodation. I don't believe such a medical condition exists.

But to answer the question asked, Yes. As a privately run club that does not provide service to the public, this forum should be able to restrict membership however and for whatever reason they desire. If, for example, they wished to set up a rule that said 'No Purple People', then they should be able to do so. I don't think I'd want to be a member under those conditions, and again this would be my choice. The law goes too far when private clubs are involved.

[Xlucine]

I think abaxas is hinting at tourettes syndrome - under the additional guidance to the disability act 2010 it falls into the category of impairments around which reasonable adjustments could be expected. I'm not sure how that fits with a private forum though - denial of a service based on a characteristic which is judged to be discriminated against is illegal (eg cake for gay marriages, or IIRC a B&B didn't allow a gay couple to share a room a few years ago). Anyone without that disability wouldn't have any excuse, of course.

[kalniel]

I think abaxas is hinting at tourettes syndrome - under the additional guidance to the disability act 2010 it falls into the category of impairments around which reasonable adjustments could be expected. I'm not sure how that fits with a private forum though - denial of a service based on a characteristic which is judged to be discriminated against is illegal (eg cake for gay marriages, or IIRC a B&B didn't allow a gay couple to share a room a few years ago). Anyone without that disability wouldn't have any excuse, of course.

I'm sure if there was a Hexus social event then there would indeed be reasonable adjustments for anyone with tourettes. But it doesn't affect posting on a forum.

[peterb]

I'm still waiting to see exactly where HEXUS is supposed to be practising discrimination on the forums.

So far it just seems like mischief making

(I have moved two posts to this thread, and moved the thread to GD to encourage wider debate)

[Ttaskmaster]

If, for example, they wished to set up a rule that said 'No Purple People', then they should be able to do so.

But that discriminates against me, since I am a one-eyed, one-horned, flying, Purple People eater... and I must be allowed to eat!!

[BobF64]

Legally, discrimination is a problem when applied to race, gender, religion, sexual orientation or age I think, and I can't see anything in the rules or mod actions that even goes near that.

Inability to engage brain before typing, or even clicking "Submit", would never be discriminatory, otherwise politicians would need classifying as disabled and I can't see that happening.

[Zak33]

If we chose to close the forum entirely I would discriminate against every single member who liked it

but we can.

I don't think abax is talking about tourettes though because the typed word can be edited immediately after by the typer. It's not the spoken word. He'll tell us more I guess.

What I dread is the requirement for us to accept scanned copies of psycholgolical reviews from members, where we have to then go to the psychologist and confirm the review is legit and then give or revoke authority to post.

imagine that scenario. Signing up to a forum would take two years.. the thread of interest would have gone slightly cold by then

however, scalable things like swearing are a bugger to judge. Bugger... judgement call. Sod that. Judgement call. Sod off... judgement on comedy - ban or allow.

Modding here is like reffing in the park. I get Players/Dad's hating me cos their son's been yellow carded and you know what..?.....one day.. I simply wont bother and I will quit. So long as it's fun and I can hold a sensible moral compass to guide me I will. But trust me... my compass is TOTALLY different to the others Mod's and Admins. And it SHOULD be different.

Enough soul searching goes on behind the scenes of HEXUS on stuff like swearing without making it all more complex by mentally training Mods and Admins to THINK the same.
We could allow all language. But we won't because it lowers the IQ of the forum. Meet me in real life.... gutteral. Lower than most for my language. Can I get away with it....? mostly yup
does it type well? NOOOOOO

Shall I allow the F or C word? How about the SH or W? If someone calls me a tw@ do I laugh when another mod inst-perma-bans?

and IF the poster said "it was tourettes... I'm not guilty" then what? Un-ban? Medal? Cake? Free gift? Punch in the face?

nahh...

lifes complex enough. HEXUS is voluntary. We aren't paid. If it's too hard and not fun.. we all leave. Forum closes. Night night. Go wind up some other mods.

over to Abax now to explain exactly what he wants. My moral compass is cracked, the funny liquid is running on my maps and the inks smudged

[ik9000]

Could it be useful to define the verb "to discriminate" vs the related verbs of "to differentiate" and "to distinguish"?

Distinguish - to identify, determine something's position i.e. to assign to a category
Differentiate, to decide between alternatives - i.e. to judge relatively than simply objectively
Discrimination, in its modern use, is to actively treat differently (and detrimentally) one thing from another based on what that object is, or characteristics of that object.

Discrimination is only a problem - and legislated against - where the differential treatment is unfair, and/or constitutes (unwarranted*) persecution. (*convicted criminals are rightly imprisoned for example which is discrimination, but not unfair.) This is particularly so where prejudice (unwarranted hatred based on bigotry etc) is involved. It is hard to see how Hexus could be accused of discrimination by enforcing neutral and unbiased rules and conditions of membership - as does any club, society, even online email account.

If Hexus had a rule "no blacks/irish/martians" that would be discriminatory. Such things would make no difference to their ability to join and post on the forums. If Hexus has a rule, "behave yourselves and play nicely or we'll ban you" and that rule is applied to all equally, and the rule in itself does not prevent a certain group of people joining to start with, then it is not discrimination. It is differentiation based purely on obedience to the forum rules. And they are perfectly sensible to enforce this. They do this much better than other forums I have visited IMO. Now, if Hexus was a sky-dive club and had a rule "no heart conditions without medical consent" that is not unfair persecution, nor discrimination, simply differentiation based on reasonable grounds. It prevents some from joining, but for good reason.

I've seen threads on pretty much anything and everything on here - and only threads discussing illegal topics have been vetoed SFAIK. Discussion of differences of opinion is healthy - and it is tolerant to permit others to hold and express a view that differs from your own. Hexus does nothing SFAIK to impend on the ability of an individual to join, post or discuss topics based on their own viewpoint/belief/etc provided it is done politely and without deliberately trying to antagonise and offend other members, and without making libelous posts. Again, I can't see what the issue is here. (Or have Hexus updated their T&Cs to say no religious debate, no Chelsea/Utd/Yeoville/etc fans, no pro-AMD threads, and no foreigners? If so, then there may be a problem.)

[ik9000]

over to Abax now to explain exactly what he wants. My moral compass is cracked, the funny liquid is running on my maps and the inks smudged

A similar problem may exist on Abaxas' side by the sound of it....

You know when you are old when your GP mentions 'penis milking' and you know the Hexus mods can't delete or edit your post

[scaryjim]

... they are perfectly sensible to enforce this. They do this much better than other forums I have visited IMO.

Thanks As a mod/admin team we try to use common sense and prefer not to step in if we can avoid it: it's actually made a lot easier for us by the fact that hexus as a whole is fairly self-moderating: we don't get all that much nastiness to deal with.

... only threads discussing illegal topics have been vetoed AFAIK.

Spot on - we'll tolerate sensible debate about most subjects, but any discussion that turns the wrong side of the law we'll stomp on for a variety of reasons, including protecting hexus from allegations of encouraging unlawful activity. It can be a difficult call sometimes: it's easy for a discussion to drift into grey areas. Nice to hear you think we mostly get it right though!

[Ttaskmaster]

however, scalable things like swearing are a bugger to judge. Bugger... judgement call. Sod that. Judgement call. Sod off... judgement on comedy - ban or allow.

Words like that are those expletive attributives that may or may not be considered profane or vulgar, depending on context. A lot of the British ones are generally not considered outright offensive, although I suppose a simple ruling would be whether or not you'd be happy with your ten-year-old spitting it out.
Times change too, as using 'bloody' was once considered the ultimate sin... they'd have had a heart attack watching The Guns Of Navarone!

Meet me in real life.... gutteral. Lower than most for my language. Can I get away with it....? mostly yup
does it type well? NOOOOOO
Shall I allow the F or C word? How about the SH or W? If someone calls me a tw@ do I laugh when another mod inst-perma-bans?Un-ban? Medal? Cake? Free gift? Punch in the face?
My moral compass is cracked, the funny liquid is running on my maps and the inks smudged

Sounds great - Can we not have a private corner of the forum where anything is permitted and you're the Mod/ref?

[ik9000]

Thanks As a mod/admin team we try to use common sense and prefer not to step in if we can avoid it: it's actually made a lot easier for us by the fact that hexus as a whole is fairly self-moderating: we don't get all that much nastiness to deal with.

it helps that people can edit their posts after hitting "post reply" - unlike other forums where there is no re-course to mop up the hasty fire-from-the-hip expletive laden response to certain users

[Zak33]

it helps that people can edit their posts after hitting "post reply" -

and THAT is why tourettes isn't a problem... if it comes out... you can remove it, and with a keyboard, .. clicking POST QUICK REPLY also takes time to do.. so in theory I think it's all ok.

think Abax has confused us.. he's just down one alley and we're down another and our street view is all garbled

it'll sort.