IDS resigned !! Comments ??

[Lucio]

Of course the financial situation would be improved at a strike if we weren't paying large amounts of cash to the EU in exchange for the loss of the right to set our own rate of VAT, among other things.

Are there any facts or figures to back this up?

Most financial reports I've seen point towards our membership in the EU being a net positive for the UK's GDP, partially due to the reduction or elimination of various trade tariffs, not to mention the positive impact on the labour market due to having a larger base of skilled employees to chose from.

If there are reasons to leave the EU, I've not seen any evidence to indicate an financial incentive as a reason to do so.

[SeriousSam]

Are there any facts or figures to back this up?

Most financial reports I've seen point towards our membership in the EU being a net positive for the UK's GDP, partially due to the reduction or elimination of various trade tariffs, not to mention the positive impact on the labour market due to having a larger base of skilled employees to chose from.

If there are reasons to leave the EU, I've not seen any evidence to indicate an financial incentive as a reason to do so.

As it stands any economic prognostication about the difference between being in and out of the EU is an utter waste of time. Essentially because we have no idea what out actually means until the dust settles on negotiations covering things such as tariffs. The only thing that is certain is that there would be a short term cost, both in terms of said negotiations and market instability during that period.

After that we could either be better or worse off depending on the outcome of the negotiations, at least in the short to medium term. Beyond that it actually comes down to what happens with the rest of the world, especially China and the US. My brother, who is a government economist, thinks that the flexibility provided by being outside the EU would probably be better. However, he always caveats that with "but there are also a host of scenarios where being part of EU would be better".

If I were to pick an analogy then I'd go with evolutionary dynamics of survival; EU (safety in numbers) vs. not in EU (adaptability).

[ik9000]

Or how about. In EU Tory government limited in what they can do. Not in EU Tory government have free reign to overhaul employment law as they see fit...

Now given what they're doing to the NHS and schools, do we really want to see that?

[SeriousSam]

Or how about. In EU Tory government limited in what they can do. Not in EU Tory government have free reign to overhaul employment law as they see fit...

Now given what they're doing to the NHS and schools, do we really want to see that?

I actually do want to see a Conservative government free of the shackles of the EU, though more for the lack of shackles rather than anything else. We would finally be in a position whereby the governance of country is our choice. So the question really is; do you fear it because of what might happen, or because it will most likely make it harder for Labour to get elected.

In any case I could quite easily read your opening statement as "I can't get what I want via the ballot box so I'll sell the country up the river to those who don't always have our best interests at heart... just so I can get some of what I want".

[pp05]

Has he actuially seen the light, has he had a death threat ?

Or is he just protecting his own bottom.

Protecting his own bottom.

His department have been served an order by courts to submit a report into the number of suicides by claimants in the last 7 years. This is the 3rd request and so they will have to. I suspect it won't look good for DWP.

[pp05]

Or how about. In EU Tory government limited in what they can do. Not in EU Tory government have free reign to overhaul employment law as they see fit...

Now given what they're doing to the NHS and schools, do we really want to see that?

Not in EU means no trade agreement with the US. They will only deal with the EU and will not deal with the UK seperately.

Do you want a Tory government to change employment laws as THEY see fit?

[ik9000]

Not in EU means no trade agreement with the US. They will only deal with the EU and will not deal with the UK seperately.

Do you want a Tory government to change employment laws as THEY see fit?

No.I do not. and that's my point!

[Saracen]

Not in EU means no trade agreement with the US. They will only deal with the EU and will not deal with the UK seperately.

.....

The current US trade representative said the US are not "particularly in the market" for a UK deal. Of course he did, because the US regards it as in the US interests to keep the UK in the EU. And he takes his brief from the current administration, which will not, under any circumstances, be the administration in power in the US when Brexit occurs, if it does.

What position the US takes once Brexit has happened will be for the then administration to determine, and it won't be Obama and may not even be Democrats. Don't forget that unlike the UK where a 'professional' civil service remains (in theory) politically impartial an in-post despite changes in government, a vast number of US jobs are political appointees and a change of president ushers in thousands of new appointees (subject, in some cases, to Congressional confirmation).

....

Do you want a Tory government to change employment laws as THEY see fit?

If It's a choice between laws brought in by a government the people of this country elect, and can unelect, over a remote and unremoveable Brussels machine, hell yes.

[opel80uk]

I actually do want to see a Conservative government free of the shackles of the EU, though more for the lack of shackles rather than anything else. We would finally be in a position whereby the governance of country is our choice. So the question really is; do you fear it because of what might happen, or because it will most likely make it harder for Labour to get elected.

In any case I could quite easily read your opening statement as "I can't get what I want via the ballot box so I'll sell the country up the river to those who don't always have our best interests at heart... just so I can get some of what I want".

It could, just as easily, be viewed that a vote to leave the EU may well benefit Labour if a) the impact of a brexit adversely affects the economy and b) there is a split in the Tory party over it. Truth is, till (or if) Brexit happens, no one really knows how it will shape the British political landscape.

And with regards to the notion that somehow the EU is undemocratic because people we never voted for are making decisions that directly effect us - that is simply a magnified version of the UK Parliament, with it's FPTP system. The conservatives command a majority in the House, despite getting just 37% of the vote. So when you say the governance of our country is 'our' choice, you mean, using the 2015 Election as an example, those who voted Tory and not the majority of the country.

As an aside, the Paradox is UKIP do far better in Brussels, and their PR system, than they will ever do in Westminster under FPTP.

[SeriousSam]

It could, just as easily, be viewed that a vote to leave the EU may well benefit Labour if a) the impact of a brexit adversely affects the economy and b) there is a split in the Tory party over it. Truth is, till (or if) Brexit happens, no one really knows how it will shape the British political landscape.

You can rely on human nature and generally when things go bad peoples views become more "conservative".

And with regards to the notion that somehow the EU is undemocratic because people we never voted for are making decisions that directly effect us - that is simply a magnified version of the UK Parliament, with it's FPTP system. The conservatives command a majority in the House, despite getting just 37% of the vote. So when you say the governance of our country is 'our' choice, you mean, using the 2015 Election as an example, those who voted Tory and not the majority of the country.

The point about shackles wasn't to do with being undemocratic, but that it ties us to an unwieldy and glacial system which sets limits that we have very little chance of changing. To give you an example; last I heard they were still debating the laws pertaining to meat plus meat products and that rigmarole started nearly 5years ago. All because every country is attempting to prevent its products from being subject to the more stringent classifications. It's all part of the same PDO / PDI & TSG protectionist nonsense, which claims to promote quality but is just anti-competition.

In any case no country or political system is truly democratic... which is a good thing as it would basically be organised anarchy.

[opel80uk]

You can rely on human nature and generally when things go bad peoples views become more "conservative".

Indeed, but that wouldn't necessarily be the case if the big C Conservatives are deemed to be to blame for things going wrong. If it goes very bad, Labour won't be slow in saying that this is why they said it was the wrong time to be holding a referendum on the EU, and that it was as a result of Cameron failing to negotiate a proper deal beforehand.

The point about shackles wasn't to do with being undemocratic, but that it ties us to an unwieldy and glacial system which sets limits that we have very little chance of changing. To give you an example; last I heard they were still debating the laws pertaining to meat plus meat products and that rigmarole started nearly 5years ago. All because every country is attempting to prevent its products from being subject to the more stringent classifications. It's all part of the same PDO / PDI & TSG protectionist nonsense, which claims to promote quality but is just anti-competition.

But that's just one way of looking at it. It could, equally, be viewed that rather than steamrolling legislation through, it's actually a good thing that these issues being discussed within the EU are discussed over a long period, and a more considered and dare I say it, democratic and consensus driven approach taken. I mean, it's not as if the EU can't move quickly when needs be, as exampled during the Greek bail-out, but laws pertaining to meat plus meat products is hardly urgent I wouldn't have thought.

Shackles may well feel restraining at times, by they can also restrict wild and sudden movements to the right or left, one of the things that the EU can, not unreasonably, say it has helped to prevent amongst it's members with closer integration.

[rogerroger]

Actually met the guy and have to say seams a real genuinely nice guy.

Which from what you read appears to be a really rarity !!!!!

[pp05]

http://www.computerweekly.com/news/4...g-all-was-well

Our hero.