So long and thanks for all the fish

[MaddAussie]

It's time I left Hexus.

Over the last few years I have become more and more disillusioned with the state of the forums, the bullying of members by the mods when they support a position that is contrary to is the obvious bias of the moderation team. I have seen 3 people in the past leave Hexus due to it and I am seeing it again.

While I could stay and argue I just do.n't see the point

[outwar6010]

Yeah I will be leaving too. This used to be a place where everyone was respectful to one another but that changed when the moderators started taking political stances and shielding fellow people with problematic views while abusing their powers and silencing those of us who called the racism and self harming political choices.

[g8ina]

Have replied by PM to both of you.

[philehidiot]

"Problematic views"

"Racism"

"Self-harming political choices"

"Obvious bias"

I'll be honest, if someone's views are "problematic" in your opinion, it is not your right to expect the mods will do anything other than respect their freedom of expression within the rules of the forum / laws of the territory in which the forum operates.

I've never seen any racism on here and that word get banded around so much, real racism gets ignored. It's infuriating and an accusation I wouldn't throw around without definitive evidence as it's also potentially a criminal offence. "RACIST!" is usually a word I see thrown around when someone needs to shut someone else down and can't argue their case rationally. Calling someone racist just means you get to not deal with their views as you've branded them immoral and evil. Kinda like the people who call everyone they disagree with "Hitler" - it's just a way of not having to contend with them.

As for the "self-harming political choices" - it is not your right to expect that anyone will defend your political perspective on things no matter how correct you believe you are. Mods are there to allow respectful conversation and I've seen many a thread locked becuase people judge others as idiots because their politcal views differ, breaking the rules of the forum and basic decorum as a result.

I think the "obvious bias" of the moderation team may well be percieved because when people get all overly-emotional and personal, it gets shut down. That you're leaving because of this suggests to me you're taking things far too personally and are resentful that threads get shut down for the greater good before you have had chance to post your retribute. You feel you're being shut down but the reality is that the argument is being shut down and it's quite probable your attitude contributed to that decision if you were involved.

I have always found these threads where people stomp off with an "I'M LEAVING!" as being quite silly and playground-like. I've been on many forums and have left many forums either because myself and my needs have changed, the forums have gradually changed or people I get on with have left. On none of them have I ever done a flouncing post... I think I did a respectful "goodbye" post on one to say I was moving on and it was nothing personal. Normally, when a forum ceases to meet my needs, I just post less and less and it gradually fades away.

There are plenty of threads on Hexus I don't even bother opening. I have been very active in the Brexit debate for the past 5 or so years and Hexus is a way of escaping that stuff. Y'know what I do? I don't open the threads if I can't be bothered with it or don't like the way politics is dicussed on a particular forum. You don't have to read it. Stick to the tech stuff and just walk away from threads before engaging and getting all upset that someone else has an opinion or perspective that you do not like.

I have had a bollocking or two from the mods team on here and, whilst I may not agree with them, it's their forum, run how they want and it's quite clear it's not personal. If you're thinking them shutting down an argument that's getting out of hand is them being biased and taking things personally, I suggest considering you may be projecting.

If you think it's unfair, leave, that's your choice. But don't go thinking everyone else is the problem if you have been involved. It's highly likely you were contributing as much as the other guy. My suggestion is just avoid the damn politics threads, have a beer and remember that just because someone doesn't think as you do, it doesn't make them wrong or evil or irrational. Maybe really listening to each other would be the way forward.

[BobF64]

Such is the problem with supporting free speech, everyone sees their speech as the most unbiased, important and protection worthy.

But you can defend everyone, nor can you allow things to run rampant either, especially if its "ranty" or uncoordinated thoughts.

I've got into many arguments with people over the years, usually because I either inadequately explain things or they are just too stubborn to concede they misunderstand or are wrong.

[Top_gun]

It's time I left Hexus.

Over the last few years I have become more and more disillusioned with the state of the forums, the bullying of members by the mods when they support a position that is contrary to is the obvious bias of the moderation team. I have seen 3 people in the past leave Hexus due to it and I am seeing it again.

While I could stay and argue I just do.n't see the point

I've had PMs about the ridiculous moderation from other people in the past. So I know it is not a case of just you. Even more sickening are the people who are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the mods and turning a blind eye to events on this forum.

Early this morning I was thinking it was time for me to move on to a bigger platform with a far greater reach. Completely unaware on recent events with outwar6010. The dismissive nature in threatening him with a ban highlights a bigger picture on what's been happening over a number of years. This is not one of those rare moments of poor judgement or I didn't look at the context because of an illness/condition sort of thing. It has been going for a long long time given the grave yard state in other parts of the forum.

[philehidiot]

Such is the problem with supporting free speech, everyone sees their speech as the most unbiased, important and protection worthy.

But you can defend everyone, nor can you allow things to run rampant either, especially if its "ranty" or uncoordinated thoughts.

I've got into many arguments with people over the years, usually because I either inadequately explain things or they are just too stubborn to concede they misunderstand or are wrong.

I think the problem is the way people approach discussions. There are a few points I have learnt in years of political discussion:

1) Banning someone for their opinion is a way of letting that opinion fester. It lends it credibility as it can't be beaten in open discourse and so those in power must suppress it. My example here is when the BNP leader was let on Question Time. People were crying out how it was lending legitimacy to a racist party. What it did was let his views out for a little fresh air and, sunlight being the best disinfectant, the BNP was quickly bankrupted and effectively destroyed.

2) Debates do not work. Debates are people just trying to get one up on the other person and often use silly tactics and it's all about being right, regardless of what you believe. I believe in the dialectic. This is where you are using argument and disagreement to get to a higher truth than either of you could achieve alone. The aim is to agree at the end and both be better for it, not to win and compel the other to take your view. What this demands, especially on forums where the world can see, is the shedding of the egotistical desire to be right and to win.

3) Listen. For crying out loud listen to the other person. Don't just take the first thing they say that you think you can take down and spend the rest of the time they're talking thinking about how you're going to make it sound stupid. Odds are whilst you're thinking about this whilst they're talking, they have addressed the point you're going to make and you look silly. Listen, repeat it back to them in their own words and to their satisfaction. THEN consider the counterpoints. You'd be surprised how much respect that short pause whilst you do the thinking gets you as it's obvious you're taking them seriously.

4) Accept before you go into the discussion that the other person may know something you do not. Act as if they have something to teach you, listen to it and maybe learn from it. It means you won't always "win" but, that no longer being the point, you end up going away from the argument with things to look up, consider and then you'll be far stronger next time round. Maybe 99 of 100 things they say are rubbish and not worth it. But you're talking to them anyway, so you might as well listen and that one thing might be the thing that stops you looking silly in another discussion or worse.

5) Just try and understand why someone else has come to their conclusions. A good example is I might say "I think all Muslims should be banned from this country"*. I would expect that to be a shocking and fairly horrific statement. The temptation is to go "you racist, xenophobic little sh...." but you'll do nothing there to counter my belief. So, just ask "why?". You will then get a response of "well, in the last year we have records for we have nearly 20,000 young British girls raped by grooming gangs of which >95% were Muslims and my daughter was one of them and the establishment is protecting them and prosecuted my daughter, not her rapists!". That's a rational argument, identifies a real problem and it has clearly hit this person hard. Now, you can go away and look up those figures, consider the argument and come up with a counter-case. (That being that is a tiny minority of Muslims, it's essentially organised crime, yes it's horrific the establishment is protecting them out of fear of being called racist but the benefits we get from the Muslim population which would be lost would be huge. You could then point out how there's a reason we don't allow victims or relatives thereof to sentence people in court because they can't be rational and you could help this person see they're tarring everyone with the same brush). You might even change my mind or at least get me to consider I might be wrong.

If you just shout "RACIST! SILENCE THE RACIST!" none of that happens. Accept the racist is probably rational until proven otherwise as hard as it might be.

Ramble over.

*I do NOT believe this, it's an example!

[Top_gun]

4) Accept before you go into the discussion that the other person may know something you do not. Act as if they have something to teach you, listen to it and maybe learn from it. It means you won't always "win" but, that no longer being the point, you end up going away from the argument with things to look up, consider and then you'll be far stronger next time round. Maybe 99 of 100 things they say are rubbish and not worth it. But you're talking to them anyway, so you might as well listen and that one thing might be the thing that stops you looking silly in another discussion or worse.

I think this was the number one reason why I felt it was time I needed to go to a bigger platform for personal growth instead of fighting here with all the usual underhanded tactics.

I was on a football forum talking about the EU last week. I learnt more in 15 minutes than I would here on Hexus in the past five years. There's absolutely nothing to learn from the Telegraph newspaper reader, merely intellectually bankrupt, as the billionaire owners dictate the agenda or have lines to take from the Tory lying machine.

I always have a yearning desire for knowledge and ideas. Am amazed on the amount of knowledge in my local area. I very much doubt there's anything to learn from the typical isolated brexit northerner schooled in sloganism by the conservatives.

As they say, onwards and upwards!

[philehidiot]

I very much doubt there's anything to learn from the typical isolated brexit northerner schooled in sloganism by the conservatives.

As they say, onwards and upwards!

Wow. Honestly, just wow.

You've just taken my point about accepting someone may know something you don't and then gone and said something so utterly closed-minded and ignorant. It's quite funny but terrifying at the same time.

Labour lost their usual safe seats because of this exact attitude. I'm quite stunned.

In fact, I'm leaving this discussion here before I respond with something I'll regret.

EDIT: All I'll say is if you feel that way about northerners and you actually want to "grow", you might start by talking to the exact people you dislike. I spent substantial time talking to people on both sides of the argument to learn why they think what they think. The only way you come to brand a whole bunch of people like that based on geographical location is ignorance.

[Top_gun]

Wow. Honestly, just wow.

You've just taken my point about accepting someone may know something you don't and then gone and said something so utterly closed-minded and ignorant. It's quite funny but terrifying at the same time.

Labour lost their usual safe seats because of this exact attitude. I'm quite stunned.

In fact, I'm leaving this discussion here before I respond with something I'll regret.

You simply have no idea on my level of thinking. At the end of the day, Northern Brexiters are politically isolated and having difficulties in understanding how the world works. They simply have a protectionist attitude to the real world. That isn't too difficult to work out.

It'll be interesting to see how the Tories can improve the Northern constituencies without pillaging London's money. After all, it is like accepting handouts from immigrants bearing in London has a huge immigrant population. Ironic really, as I suspect a lot of them believe immigrants sponge off the benefit system.

Plus your reactions has simply revealed your true colours. Happy to defend the moderating team as long as your interest is protected.

[Top_gun]

EDIT: All I'll say is if you feel that way about northerners and you actually want to "grow", you might start by talking to the exact people you dislike. I spent substantial time talking to people on both sides of the argument to learn why they think what they think. The only way you come to brand a whole bunch of people like that based on geographical location is ignorance.

Happy to brand a geographical location based on their voting intentions. Not exactly ignorance, is it now?

I tend to have the opposite view, the more I know about them the more I dislike them. Funny that!

[Spreadie]

Happy to brand a geographical location based on their voting intentions. Not exactly ignorance, is it now?

I tend to have the opposite view, the more I know about them the more I dislike them. Funny that!

If you want to grow, re-read everything you've posted in this thread and then look up "cognitive dissonance".

[Top_gun]

If you want to grow, re-read everything you've posted in this thread and then look up "cognitive dissonance".

I'm extremely certain there's absolutely nothing to learn from the Northern Brexiteers after extensive research. Therefore the "cognitive dissonance" simply doesn't apply to me.

To use the 'cognitive dissonance' against me is simply an indication of lazy assumptions made by yourself without knowing my true self.

[Spreadie]

I'm extremely certain there's absolutely nothing to learn from the Northern Brexiteers after extensive research. Therefore the "cognitive dissonance" simply doesn't apply to me.

To use the 'cognitive dissonance' against me is simply an indication of lazy assumptions made by yourself without knowing my true self.

Oh, I'm the one making lazy assumptions? Silly me.

[Ttaskmaster]

There's absolutely nothing to learn from the Telegraph newspaper reader, merely intellectually bankrupt, as the billionaire owners dictate the agenda or have lines to take from the Tory lying machine.

For someone who cites the opinions of staunch Tory supporters, such as Marco Pierre White and Samuel Johnson, your assertions are highly unconvincing...

You simply have no idea on my level of thinking.

You've made that lack of thought, on any level, quite clear in your posts.

At the end of the day, Northern Brexiters are politically isolated and having difficulties in understanding how the world works.

And the Southern ones, including the 40% of Londoners who voted to Leave?
Yeah, you know, London? Fish n' chips, cup o' tea, Mary flippin' Poppins? The best and brightest, because they're all Graduates...? London.

Ironic really, as I suspect a lot of them believe immigrants sponge off the benefit system.

You'd be quite surprised to learn how many of them do... and very upset to learn that a fair few Londoners employed by BA and DWP would be able to substantiate that.
We even lost one of our engineering team in 2012, when she got 14 months for benefit fraud.

Happy to defend the moderating team as long as your interest is protected.

It's their house, their rules. You don't have to like it, but you do have to abide by it.
Most regulars have stepped over the line and been set straight. You seem intent on staying well past that line, though.

To use the 'cognitive dissonance' against me is simply an indication of lazy assumptions made by yourself without knowing my true self.

With posts like yours, there's no need to 'assume'.

But yes, we get it. You don't like it here and feel eminently more intellectually unchallenged elsewhere - No-one is stopping you from leaving...

[TeePee]

I've had PMs about the ridiculous moderation from other people in the past. So I know it is not a case of just you. Even more sickening are the people who are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the mods and turning a blind eye to events on this forum.

Early this morning I was thinking it was time for me to move on to a bigger platform with a far greater reach. Completely unaware on recent events with outwar6010. The dismissive nature in threatening him with a ban highlights a bigger picture on what's been happening over a number of years. This is not one of those rare moments of poor judgement or I didn't look at the context because of an illness/condition sort of thing. It has been going for a long long time given the grave yard state in other parts of the forum.