MEP Elections

[Galant]

I suspect this might be the most prominence the MEP elections have seen in the UK.
There's been lots of news of big names and parties, however, I've recently been trying to find a website that lists all the candidates for this coming election by region and it's surprisingly difficult.

The focus is on the parties, not the individuals, nor the regions. Considering the election is pretty darn close that's not a lot of information on a lot of mostly unknown candidates. When one considers how the parties have been divided on the central EU issue of Brexit, simply knowing party affiliation isn't necessarily enough information for most voters.

Has anyone out there found any decent resources for looking into MEP candidates?

The obvious questions about EU elections and democracy come to mind, but this is more a result of a lack of interest/awareness than the fault of the EU. Still, considering all the ways everyone has been harping on about the strength or weakness of EU democratic process, this sort of thing is a slap in the face to both sides.

[scaryjim]

The focus is on the parties because this is the one and only election in the UK that is voted for by party. To stand you have to be part of a recognised political party, and submit candidate lists for each region in order of precedence. Seats are assigned proportionately to the parties voted for; the actual MEPs elected are pulled from the party lists from top to bottom, which means that even if you like one particular candidate, there's no way to vote for them specifically, and if they're not in the top few places on their party's list there's a good chance they won't get a seat even if their party does well.

You cannot stand as an independent candidate for the EP elections - it's the reason TIG registered as a party. So information on individual candidates is kind of moot.

In fact, it's the closest thing we get in this country to how people *think* General Elections work (i.e. voting for a party rather than an individual). I'm pretty sure there's some irony in there somewhere, given that we all *know* the EU is made up entirely of unelected bureaucrats that we have no say over at all </sarcasm>

[Galant]

The focus is on the parties because this is the one and only election in the UK that is voted for by party. To stand you have to be part of a recognised political party, and submit candidate lists for each region in order of precedence. Seats are assigned proportionately to the parties voted for; the actual MEPs elected are pulled from the party lists from top to bottom, which means that even if you like one particular candidate, there's no way to vote for them specifically, and if they're not in the top few places on their party's list there's a good chance they won't get a seat even if their party does well.

You cannot stand as an independent candidate for the EP elections - it's the reason TIG registered as a party. So information on individual candidates is kind of moot.

In fact, it's the closest thing we get in this country to how people *think* General Elections work (i.e. voting for a party rather than an individual). I'm pretty sure there's some irony in there somewhere, given that we all *know* the EU is made up entirely of unelected bureaucrats that we have no say over at all </sarcasm>

And there you go. I wasn't even aware of that, nor had it come up during my searching.

Well then, off to pick a party I go!

[Saracen999]

The focus is on the parties because this is the one and only election in the UK that is voted for by party. To stand you have to be part of a recognised political party, and submit candidate lists for each region in order of precedence. Seats are assigned proportionately to the parties voted for; the actual MEPs elected are pulled from the party lists from top to bottom, which means that even if you like one particular candidate, there's no way to vote for them specifically, and if they're not in the top few places on their party's list there's a good chance they won't get a seat even if their party does well.

You cannot stand as an independent candidate for the EP elections - it's the reason TIG registered as a party. So information on individual candidates is kind of moot.

In fact, it's the closest thing we get in this country to how people *think* General Elections work (i.e. voting for a party rather than an individual). I'm pretty sure there's some irony in there somewhere, given that we all *know* the EU is made up entirely of unelected bureaucrats that we have no say over at all </sarcasm>

Tackling the last point first, what we all *know*, and who has say over what, I think most people (unless they're either directly involved, or have made a fsirly serioys attempt to find out) would struggle to define quite how the EU dies work. That is, the relevant roles and allocation of "power" between the Commission (the bureacracy), the Council (Heads of State) and Parliament (the bit we, the actual citizens, get to elect, that being the MEP's).

Moreover, in the real world (as opposed to books or academia) power and influence doesn't always flow in quite the way it would appear from the above structures. That, you will only get a grip on from talking to (or being) an experienced insider.


On the rest, I agree with that analysis.

Arguably, it is a weakness that we can''t vote directly for a candidate. It might, for instance, be that I know (let's call him Fred) Fred well enough to know that he and I think alike and he'd represent my views, but Bert (another candidate in the same party as Fred) is a complete numpty that I wouldn't trust to walk my dog .... and I don't have a dog.

If the party managers regard (and therefore list) the numpty higher than Fred, there's no way to dirextly support Fred.

Here's the major proboem with that ....

If the Brexit fiasco has taught (or for the politically more astute, confirmed) anything, it's that individuals within a party can have diametrically opposed views on specific issues. For example, Boris Johnson and Dominic Grieve are both senior Tories, have both held very senior posts, and it's hard to imagine two more different opinions and views on the EU,

So ..... if I want to vote for a Boris-type Tory for MEP, the only way to do it is to look at the Tory lists and try to work out where he is on that list, and both who is above him and what their views are on topics that really matter to me. Otherwise, I could vote Tory expecting to help elect a Boris-type, and end up helping a Grieve-type.

How many voters understand that, I wonder? And how many have researched the various candidates on the list? Especially when, as the Galant pointed out in the first post, it ain't easy finding out, even if you are looking.


At least, with the constituency system, I can vote for a specific person. I can also bend that MP''s ear directly, as a constituent (and believe me, I have), and can vote for someone else next time if I'm not happy with their performance.

The list system breaks that direct connection and leaves us one more step removed from actual democracy, especially when parties don't (regardless of whatever the reason might be) keep manifesto promises.

As far as I'm concerned, even here in the UK, our "democracy" is a thin veneer, a con-job, an illusion, designed to keep the power in the hands of the party incumbents, a bit like a high value game of pass-the-parcel. It pretty much doesn't matter who we vote for, we still end up with another bleeping politician.

And the list system is even worse.

[Galant]

... but Bert (another candidate in the same party as Fred) is a complete numpty that I wouldn't trust to walk my dog .... and I don't have a dog.

Hexus FTW.



I needed that laugh. Thanks Saracen.

[Saracen999]

Glad to help.

And let's face it, political parties do tend to be a numpty-rich environment. It's hard to move with tripping over them.

[Galant]

And lookie here, this from the BBC:

How are its members elected?
Every five years, EU countries go to the polls to elect members of the European Parliament (MEPs).

Each country is allocated a set number of seats, roughly depending on the size of its population...

At the moment there are 751 MEPs in total and the UK has 73...

...Candidates can stand as individuals or they can stand as representatives of one of the UK's political parties."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47826886

[scaryjim]

And lookie here, this from the BBC:

...Candidates can stand as individuals or they can stand as representatives of one of the UK's political parties."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47826886

Interesting - I wonder how many people would bother to stand as independents in a regional election where they'll struggle to campaign to more than a tiny proportion of their electorate... due to the PR requirements for the elections you have to get *a lot* of votes to pick up a seat ...

[Ciber]

Maybe people will vote in the European elections this time. Last time the low turnout of voters was appalling in contrast to the referendum on the same subject (Europe). When we last got to say who was elected to speak for us in European Parliament, noone cared but when given a say on if we should leave the parliament that nobody cared enough about voters came out in record numbers. A paradox that has more to do with a clever campaign on social media than what people think about Europe (if they even cared to find out about how the European Parliament actually works).

[spacein_vader]

Arguably, it is a weakness that we can''t vote directly for a candidate. It might, for instance, be that I know (let's call him Fred) Fred well enough to know that he and I think alike and he'd represent my views, but Bert (another candidate in the same party as Fred) is a complete numpty that I wouldn't trust to walk my dog .... and I don't have a dog.

If the party managers regard (and therefore list) the numpty higher than Fred, there's no way to dirextly support Fred.

Here's the major proboem with that ....

If the Brexit fiasco has taught (or for the politically more astute, confirmed) anything, it's that individuals within a party can have diametrically opposed views on specific issues. For example, Boris Johnson and Dominic Grieve are both senior Tories, have both held very senior posts, and it's hard to imagine two more different opinions and views on the EU,

So ..... if I want to vote for a Boris-type Tory for MEP, the only way to do it is to look at the Tory lists and try to work out where he is on that list, and both who is above him and what their views are on topics that really matter to me. Otherwise, I could vote Tory expecting to help elect a Boris-type, and end up helping a Grieve-type.

That assumes the current party system. What happens in real world PR systems is they have a much wider variety of parties. So you'd potentially have the Boris-Tory party, the Grieve-Tory party, the Corbyn-Labour, the Benn-Labour and so on so there'd be far more subtle differences between parties than our current vote red for left wing or blue for right wing stuff. These parties then form coalitions post election that have broadly similar views so you could have all of the tory-esq parties as the governing bloc on most things but then they vote seperately where they disagree. Net result tends to be decisions by consensus.

As for voters not understanding, while I agree its the case its almost exclusively a UK problem that the UK parties don't do enough to solve. Virtually all other EU members use some form of PR anyway so don't need it explaining to them again for euro elections.

At least, with the constituency system, I can vote for a specific person. I can also bend that MP''s ear directly, as a constituent (and believe me, I have), and can vote for someone else next time if I'm not happy with their performance.

The list system breaks that direct connection and leaves us one more step removed from actual democracy, especially when parties don't (regardless of whatever the reason might be) keep manifesto promises.

As far as I'm concerned, even here in the UK, our "democracy" is a thin veneer, a con-job, an illusion, designed to keep the power in the hands of the party incumbents, a bit like a high value game of pass-the-parcel. It pretty much doesn't matter who we vote for, we still end up with another bleeping politician.

And the list system is even worse.

You can bend an MEP's ear directly too, and it'll have about as much effect as that of an MP. Virtually none possibly save a nice letter on HoP paper sent to you a week or two later.

Agree RE: pass the parcel, disagree on the list system. Under Farage UKIP got 8m votes in the 2015 election and had one MP that wasn't even the party leader, how is that democratic? Under this system a fraction of that would get him a seat.

[blueball]

I see that Tommy Robinson has stated he will stand https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ester-48055802

Good luck with that Tommy:

From https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm

"Your right to stand as a candidate

When standing as a candidate in European elections, you will be required to make a declaration that you are not disqualified from standing as a candidate and that you are not standing in any other EU country. You may need to provide a document proving the absence of a criminal record."

[Saracen999]

Agree on virtually all of that, spacein.

FPTP certainly has flaws, and I'm not much if a fan but, so far, all we've been offered (UK-wise) is FPTP or a move to AV. I've lost count of how many times I've heard politcians (usually Tory but a few Labour, too) say we had a vote and voted to keep the current system. Well, true, sort-of, but at least in my case, it most emphatically was not a vote to affirm FPTP as the preferred option, but rather a vote against AV, that being the system even it's most ardent supporter, Clegg, described as "a dirty, little compromise", if I accurately remember the quote.

I wonder what proportion of the UK electorate could explain the differences, let alone practical imllucations of, different voting systems including PR, AV, STV and so on. It's depressing, but regularly TV interviewers seem to manage to find people that can't name the current PM, don't know who Tony Blair was or think Thatcher was Labour ..... my apologies to any weak-stomached Labourites who, reading that last notion, probably up-chucked their dinner over the lounge floor.

And I'd bet very few could name their MEP, and certainly wouldn't have much 8f a notion why tjey coukdn't. Hell, lots of people can't even name their MP - they just vote Red, Blue, Yellow, Purple or whatever, like they always have. Small wonder, if so, they don't understand, or even want to understand, EU political structures. Even I'm a bit fuzzy on the detail, and I have an ex-MEP cousin that was the leader of one of the largest Euro parliament's "groups".

[peterb]

Maybe people will vote in the European elections this time. Last time the low turnout of voters was appalling in contrast to the referendum on the same subject (Europe). When we last got to say who was elected to speak for us in European Parliament, noone cared but when given a say on if we should leave the parliament that nobody cared enough about voters came out in record numbers. A paradox that has more to do with a clever campaign on social media than what people think about Europe (if they even cared to find out about how the European Parliament actually works).

The lack of interest could be because U.K. citizens don’t particularly feel European, and the workings of a “foreign” bureaucracy is irrelevant, or that the perception is that European Parliament is a toothless body and isn’t worth spending time and effort voting for. I don’t know who my MEP is, and I can’t think of any issue that I would take to him or her - but I’m far more likely to engage with my MP.

[spacein_vader]

The lack of interest could be because U.K. citizens don’t particularly feel European, and the workings of a “foreign” bureaucracy is irrelevant, or that the perception is that European Parliament is a toothless body and isn’t worth spending time and effort voting for. I don’t know who my MEP is, and I can’t think of any issue that I would take to him or her - but I’m far more likely to engage with my MP.

Agree with that, add in a general apathy about all UK elections except a GE and that'd cover it. Council elections always have awful turnout despite the fact that they probably have a greater impact on your day to day life in many areas and are far more accountable due to smaller constituencies.
By-elections tend to only be a protest vote or an opinion poll on the governing party of the time with a similarly poor turnout too.

[Saracen999]

....

By-elections tend to only be a protest vote or an opinion poll on the governing party of the time with a similarly poor turnout too.

And they pretty much even only matter that much if you're in a marginal seat. Quite a proportion have such a natural built-in party majority that short of something utterly outrageous, like .... erm, moats or duckhouses, .... once you've got your chuff into the seat, you pretty much have to retire or die to get you out of it.

I spent some years where the extent of the influence of my vote was whether the blue-rosette incumbent, whatever his/her name, was elected with a 25000 majority, or a 24,999 majority.

[Spud1]

The lack of interest could be because U.K. citizens don’t particularly feel European, and the workings of a “foreign” bureaucracy is irrelevant, or that the perception is that European Parliament is a toothless body and isn’t worth spending time and effort voting for. I don’t know who my MEP is, and I can’t think of any issue that I would take to him or her - but I’m far more likely to engage with my MP.

I'd just qualify that with Some UK citizens don't feel european - many do, just as many don't. I'd also assert that the vast majority of people have no idea who their local UK MP is either, or at least didn't until the Brexit mess started and people wanted to start witch hunting.

Personally I think we're likely to see an increased turnout and major "victory" (although, the phrasing there is debateable) for the remain parties in this set of elections - I expect many of the brexiteers will be so angry that it's going ahead that they won't vote out of principle, and a lot of remainers will do so for the opposite reason (to show support for the EU). What will be interesting to see though is which of the parties members get the votes given the confusion position of Labour and the relatively small impact that TIG really have.

Personally if a candidate is fielded for TIG in my area they will get my vote, but we'll have to wait and see.