So, Microsoft, e-books and DRM

[Saracen999]

So usets if e-books bought vua the Microsoft store have just discovered, in the harshest possible, that their ebooks were licensed, not bought. That is, MS decided it no longer wanted to be in that business and shut it's DRM servers.

They have, honourably, given a full refund. Sort-of. Which is more than Apple did with movues on i-Tunes, but it does raise the bigger question .... how many people realise this could happen with with anything they ""buy" with embedded DRM?

Steam, for example.

[Kanoe]

I realise it and try to minimise my exposure as much as I can. I still buy music, tv shows and films on physical media and then format convert to digital so that I don't have any potential issues with those items.

I don't have ebooks, just physical books.

I have to admit, computer games is a big exposure area, not happy about it but these days not much you can do about it.

[jimborae]

This is especially true with movies and DRM protected soft copies, Ultraviolet service is closing at the end of this month and it's upto users to try & transfer their films to another service or lose them. Also where users have "purchased" films via the likes of Netflix, Google movies, Amazon etc. If the studio removes them from that service then the user is also left high & dry which has already happened in a few cases. Hard copy or piracy is the only way to ensure that you actually physically own & control the film. Crazy!!!

[jimborae]

So I've already lost one soft copy of Blade Runner the Final Cut. Available on Ultraviolet but not available to view on Flixster for some reason even though it's in my library there. When I asked about this it was something to do with the digital copy not being available in my region even though the hard copy officially was. Stupid!!! And they wonder why folks turn to piracy!!!!

[Galant]

The obvious solution here is to give people the right to download and keep any song/movie/book that they buy, if they so choose to do so, understanding that if the service ends then so does their online access to it.

The idea that making a copy is illegal is just silly.

[PC-LAD]

The obvious solution here is to give people the right to download and keep any song/movie/book that they buy, if they so choose to do so, understanding that if the service ends then so does their online access to it.

The idea that making a copy is illegal is just silly.

I agree, But there should be a way to license downloads or copied to the device it is originally moved onto, like an only from the original license. Say the device id is stored and then encrypted so the media can't be copied off that drive and played elsewhere. so you can copy an unlimited amount from the original media source

[jimborae]

I agree, But there should be a way to license downloads or copied to the device it is originally moved onto, like an only from the original license. Say the device id is stored and then encrypted so the media can't be copied off that drive and played elsewhere. so you can copy an unlimited amount from the original media source

I also agree but what happens if that device, dies, gets stolen, or is upgraded???? That may cause issues also. It's blummin' minefield and that's why I always buy a hard copy if possible, which is increasingly becoming more difficult and yet ever more necessary for the reasons described above but also for quality issues. The difference in 4K Neflix streams etc & UHD Bluray is more than noticeable, especially in dark scenes where blocking blotches becomes a real issue for me.

[Ttaskmaster]

So I've already lost one soft copy of Blade Runner the Final Cut.

Give me a hard copy, right there.

I also agree but what happens if that device, dies, gets stolen, or is upgraded????

What happens if someone nicks your DVD? Same as, I guess...

[Zak33]

What happens if someone nicks your DVD? Same as, I guess...

if your DVD/Blueray is stolen, you have lost it. It's a physcial theft... end of.

I cant bring myself to download music yet either... the CD collection grows still.

[Saracen999]

Give me a hard copy, right there.


What happens if someone nicks your DVD? Same as, I guess...

As Zak said, hard copies are susceptible to theft, but thats very different from a 'platform' supplier removing all your purchased downloads because they no longer want to run a platform.

It's akin to a bookseller or music store deciding to stop selling books/music, and commissioning burglars to break into your house and remove all the books/CDs they sold you, and burn them.

And it's not as if ebooks, etc, are always significantly cheaper than printed books or physical music/TV/film media, because they often aren't. They can be more expensive.

Personally, I like going back and re-using such items that I bought ages ago. That includes LPs I bought decades ago .... like early Beatles albums, when they were first released. I've re-read books I bought while at uni .... in the 70s.

When I "buy" a book, film, music album, whatever, I expect to be able to use it (for personal, domestic purposes) for as long as I want and, for that matter, pass it on in my Will .... like my grandmother did with some pretty rare and valuable Dickens, Shakespeares, etc. And if they get stolen .... well, that's what insurance is for.

My bet is that most members of a forum like this are rekatively (to the general population) tech-savvy and may well realise that DRM on all these kinds of media means all you are buying when you "buy" is a very limired licence, that can be pulled from you with little warning and no comoensation, at the whim of the platform provider.

I wonder if Joe and Joanna Public realise just how tenuous their "ownership" of what they are buying is, when they click "Buy". And would they still click if the button said "Buy a licence to use, until we get fed up and decide to stop you, whenever that might be".

Okay, that would be a rather big button, but you get my point.

At least with Steam and computer games, most of the gaming pleasure is derived in the first days, weeks, months or maybe, year or two. But books, movies, TV shows, music? I have examples of all of those that I still value many years, even decades, after buying.

[Ttaskmaster]

if your DVD/Blueray is stolen, you have lost it. It's a physcial theft... end of.

Exactly.
Same as if you lose your audiocassette, or break/damage the Blu-Ray disc...
Gotta go buy another one.

thats very different from a 'platform' supplier removing all your purchased downloads because they no longer want to run a platform.

But no different than, say, the closure of a radio station that plays all your favourite hits...

My bet is that most members of a forum like this are rekatively (to the general population) tech-savvy and may well realise that DRM on all these kinds of media means all you are buying when you "buy" is a very limired licence, that can be pulled from you with little warning and no comoensation, at the whim of the platform provider.

Ultimately, yeah... Although I did think that one copy of the ebook would actually be on your device, remaining so until you delete it, whereupon you'd no longer be able to re-download it.

At least with Steam and computer games, most of the gaming pleasure is derived in the first days, weeks, months or maybe, year or two.

Again, local copy of the app remains on your machine, no?

But hey, as I'm always reminded whenever something like this inconveniences me for no good reason - This is the modern way and anyone not doing it is a dinosaur who should really catch up... Why would you ever not do it our way?

[Saracen999]

Exactly.
Same as if you lose your audiocassette, or break/damage the Blu-Ray disc...
Gotta go buy another one.


But no different than, say, the closure of a radio station that plays all your favourite hits...


Ultimately, yeah... Although I did think that one copy of the ebook would actually be on your device, remaining so until you delete it, whereupon you'd no longer be able to re-download it.


Again, local copy of the app remains on your machine, no?

But hey, as I'm always reminded whenever something like this inconveniences me for no good reason - This is the modern way and anyone not doing it is a dinosaur who should really catch up... Why would you ever not do it our way?

The difference with the radio station is that I haven't bought that.

I think a lot of people thought that a copy would remain on their device .... but not, it seems, MS. I remember an enormous row a few years ago when due to some licensing cockup, Amazon sold some licences they didn't have the rights to, and the offending copies suddenly disappeared from users' Kindles. The writing was on the wall then, as to what can happen.

As for the app remaining on your device, it general terms, it depends. Evidently, at least some DRM systems are capable of, and have been used to, remove or invalidate media files. A game could be argued to be a media file.

It will also depend on how the DRM works. As I understand it, and last time I looked, some use acyivation servers that validate on installation or first play, in which case, presumably a game remains valud for the life of that PC and/or OS installation.

But others either validate on app startup, or periodically, and it was at least being discussed to revalidate on every level change.

If that lattet happens, then in the absence of the validation servers(s), then while technically the app wouod still be on the device .... but unusable. It's like buying a CD or DVD/Bluray (whatever) but you have to get a decryption code ever time you want to use it. If the code server ceases function, you'd still have the CD/DVD/BD but it won't do you any good because it's encrypted and unusable. I certainly wouldn't buy any CD (etc) that worked like that.

In my opinion, a large part of this DRM stuff is no longer about preventing copying: it's now much, MUCH more about locking in marketv segments, and locking out competitors.

Which makes me wonder how all the IoT devices are going to work, if the 'platform' pulls out of an unprofitable market.

[lodore]

The difference with the radio station is that I haven't bought that.

I think a lot of people thought that a copy would remain on their device .... but not, it seems, MS. I remember an enormous row a few years ago when due to some licensing cockup, Amazon sold some licences they didn't have the rights to, and the offending copies suddenly disappeared from users' Kindles. The writing was on the wall then, as to what can happen.

As for the app remaining on your device, it general terms, it depends. Evidently, at least some DRM systems are capable of, and have been used to, remove or invalidate media files. A game could be argued to be a media file.

It will also depend on how the DRM works. As I understand it, and last time I looked, some use acyivation servers that validate on installation or first play, in which case, presumably a game remains valud for the life of that PC and/or OS installation.

But others either validate on app startup, or periodically, and it was at least being discussed to revalidate on every level change.

If that lattet happens, then in the absence of the validation servers(s), then while technically the app wouod still be on the device .... but unusable. It's like buying a CD or DVD/Bluray (whatever) but you have to get a decryption code ever time you want to use it. If the code server ceases function, you'd still have the CD/DVD/BD but it won't do you any good because it's encrypted and unusable. I certainly wouldn't buy any CD (etc) that worked like that.

In my opinion, a large part of this DRM stuff is no longer about preventing copying: it's now much, MUCH more about locking in marketv segments, and locking out competitors.

Which makes me wonder how all the IoT devices are going to work, if the 'platform' pulls out of an unprofitable market.

I share the concern of the DRM and leased content. FYI it has already happened with some IOT devices. I can't remember exactly what it was but the company suddenly said it isn't profitable anymore and we are shutting down the servers in 6weeks times. I don't like the idea that hardware i have purchased can become an expensive paperweight either temporary or permanently.

The company I previously worked for kept the old version of a database software as the new version was subscription only. subscription CRM/ stock databases are such a bad idea IMHO. if a payment fails for whatever reason the database is held to ransom only it is resolved.

It is now even becoming hard to purchase devices without so called smart functionality. AFAIK all LG devices now have wifi and app control. why would i need an app to control a washing machine? I still need to load the machine and put measure the washing powder.


For computer /networking equipment I am looking towards business products which normally provide faster updates and longer life support. The other advantage is that they don't contain any gimmicks that the home products come with.

I still purchase media where possible as I like to own the content even if it costs more.

Netflix and other subscription may seem good for the amount of content for a low price but you could end up in the middle of a series when they lose the contract which could end up you having to purchase it anyway or pay for another subscription just to finish.

I do love the irony that some games have been pirated after people purchase the game as the DRM failed so often that the users ended up having to pirate it just to finish the game. one example is simcity which required permanent internet connection even for offline mode.

When Microsoft announced the disc less Xbox I laughed and knew it was to force people to pay more money for the downloads rather than producing a cheaper console.

Digital downloads should be cheaper but the companies lie to you and say you are paying for the convenience. I would much rather pay less for a disc and wait rather than paying full price for the download. Problem is most people want things now which is why the companies can charge more for downloads.

[Saracen999]

Agreed on all points, lodore, but with one small caveat.

I do draw a distinction, personally, between the hostage-to-fortune that is DRM, and subscription services that are marketed as being subscription services. So, personally, if you pay a monthly fee for access to musuc services, video services, etc, then you know up-front that to continue, you have to pay monthly.

I see that as different to "buying" digital content, which most people might think gave them permanent rights, like it does if you buy a book or CD

And sure, a subscription service could collapse part-way through a month, or a series, but that's a standard risk.

Personally, such subscription services don't appeal to me at all, and I won't use them, be it Netflix, Photoshop, Office365 or some digital music service. But I can see why tgey do appeal to others. Like you, if I'm going to "buy' a movie or music album, it'll be on physical media.

And I did seem to remember some IoT "service" collapsing, but I couldn't recall any details so didn't mention it. There probably are instances where "smart" devices have real, practical benefits but, for me, there's a lot where it is, IMHO at least, a useless, gimmicky fad, and fridges, freezers, washing machines, etc, top that list for me. Smart lights, room thermostats, etc, well, I can see the appeal but I still don't think it's for me.

[spacein_vader]

Agree with Saracen. Netflix is pretty up front that it's a subscription TV service just like Sky/Virgin just delivered by a different method. You can watch their shoes for as long as you're subscribing. The same is true for Spotify and similar services for music and for Amazon's Kindle Unlimited service for books.

It's the ones where you buy them that are tricky, fortunately there are still ways to buy all of the above in a permanent way without hoisting the jolly Roger.

For books you have physical ones, DRM free ebook stores like Kobo or local backups made via Calibre plus for stuff out of copyright there's always Project Gutenberg.

For music physical CDs, a few smaller DRM free online stores plus the fact that Amazon, Google Play & iTunes will all allow you to download a DRM free copy (some restrict it to downloading twice only so make backups!)

Games on console still have physical releases and GOG and Itch.io are DRM free. Steam is an odd one, as it is possible to buy DRM free games from them. It's up to individual Devs who don't tend to shout about it but if they don't enable Steam DRM then once the game is downloaded you can move the directory out of steam, delete steam and the game will still work.

[DanceswithUnix]

I have an old Nook e-reader kicking around. They pulled out of the UK, transferring their customer base to Sainsburys digital media. Sainsburys then pulled out, transferring the customers to Rakuten. In each of these transfers I was given a refund for ebooks that the new platform didn't have the rights to, and a voucher (£5 I think) as a sweetener to keep me on the new platform.

The reality was that the new platforms didn't integrate with the Nook which knew nothing about them, so any purchases involved all sorts of conversion and cable plugging to get them on the Nook so I never bothered and it became a dead platform. This also meant that the books that were refunded are still on the Nook as they never got removed.

The amounts of money involved are very small, so I don't feel annoyed or out of pocket. I am now using a Kindle Paperwhite, which I have been very happy with.

Another thing: The Nook still mostly works, but one of the books I bought was some bargain bumper collection of SciFi stories that was something like 15000 pages and I have yet to get to the end but have almost worn out the "next page" button trying. Paper books wear out with use as well, but wearing out all your books at once is unfortunate.

And I did seem to remember some IoT "service" collapsing, but I couldn't recall any details so didn't mention it. There probably are instances where "smart" devices have real, practical benefits but, for me, there's a lot where it is, IMHO at least, a useless, gimmicky fad, and fridges, freezers, washing machines, etc, top that list for me. Smart lights, room thermostats, etc, well, I can see the appeal but I still don't think it's for me.

I have a Kodak picture frame which was Internet enabled so you could eg email pictures to it. The cloud service went away, with the upshot that the device now still turns itself on and off automatically during the day but its clock has drifted way off with no facility to set the clock or even disable the feature as that was all part of the cloud setup system.