Patriotic - Getting it right

[Lanky123]

I note that in some cultures humility is highly valued, so the people won't shout about how awesome they are, but that is definitely not the same as feeling ashamed of their history and heritage.

Quite so. If a national culture includes modesty, self-deprecation and a stiff upper lip then promoting that culture too brashly will clearly be anathema to those who possess it. A very good (IMO) David Mitchell monologue from years ago on this topic that only seems to get more relevant:

https://youtu.be/SdVnEbHZjzo

[TeePee]

For the anti-patriots.. Would you consider yourself globalists?

Opinions on the French rejection of FYROM or North Macedonia, or whatever they have permission to call themselves now?

Do you actually advocate a position that no culture is superior to any other?

[kalniel]

Do you actually advocate a position that no culture is superior to any other?

For me it's about values. No culture is inherently superior to another, but some cultures, right now, have more of the values that I ..er.. value. They haven't always - values can and do shift with time, sometimes a very short space of time. Take the UK's views on homosexuality for example.

[Ttaskmaster]

Is there even any truth in that?

Truth that it's joked about, or truth that what is joked about does actually happen?
I'd certainly say yes to the latter, as it's a sentiment I've heard echoed and asserted in various forms, by both those of English nationality and those outside of it. I've also read a fair few books regarding such things, with a focus on England, its national identity, nationalities in general and stuff like that.

I do mean English specifically, by the way, not British. However, a great many who feel we should be ashamed of our history and nationality do often seem to confuse the two. Hearing one Englander tell another about the 'English' concentration camps, was perhaps one of the worst examples, of course along with the English Empire in India...

If one is to be proud of one's nation's accomplishment, then it would only be fair that one is ashamed of one's nation's failing right?

Not necessarily.
It depends what came of that failing, what was learned from it and what it gave rise to.
Were the Romans evil invaders who forced us at spearpoint into a horrendous life of sanitation, medicine, education, public order, irrigation, roads, fresh water systems and public health?
Also, are these things to be proud of?

But either way, the actual point remains - Whether things are perceived as successes or failures is of no consequence. It's the facts that they are there, and they are what make us, which we're celebrating.
There are several cars which are outright utter junk... but the countries that make them are still proud, because they make it and it's theirs. Some have even become collectors items, and the owners still drive them with pride.
How about sausages? Lincolnshire, Cumberland, Lorne... They all sausages and they're all just as awesome (or sickening, if you have no taste for such things) as each other, and stand up just as well against German wurst (in all its variants) and South African Boerewors... But these are ours and we're proud of them. It's not necessarily that they're better, it's that they're ours. Throughout Eastern Europe it seems every country has their own version of Pierogi/Pierozhki, and each will proudly extoll the virtues of their own... even if it's exactly the same as anothers.

Obviously it doesn't preclude one from believing that as a whole, there is more to one's nation to be proud of than ashamed of

Unless your nation has spent the last 200 years doing nothing but behaving like Nazis, then it's a very safe bet that you do have far more things of which to be proud!!.

I don't think that it makes sense for me to be to feel proud nor shame in most instances.

It's not about how much you, as an individual, have contributed. It's about whether you were a part of it. The nation is not you... it is all of us of that nationality, from the birth of that nation right the way through. That is what makes us a nation and that is from where our pride comes... but it requires that very unity.

But, and this is likely true everywhere, someone who has just arrived or just visiting are more likely to see things with rose tinted glass than someone who has been around a while and the massive essay probably won't be a one way rave about all the awesome stuff that come out from the UK.

I speak of various people, including those who have moved back here to live for the third time in their lives.
Obviously it's not an entire garden of roses, but there are plenty of things they love and, again, those are all parts of what goes to make the nation that we're proud to be.

But as I see it, being detached from the concept is largely harmless, while being involved can go either way.

That was what I was suggesting earlier - Being detatched is what allows so much of that national identity to fall by the wayside, until you end up with a nation that doesn't even know what its identity is any more.

[Galant]

Well, well...

Rumours are creeping out about Lisa Nandy being a possible leadership candidate for the Labour party. If they bear out it will be one to watch. Labour heading in a better direction perhaps?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...labour-leader/

[Zak33]

Well, well...

Rumours are creeping out about Lisa Nandy being a possible leadership candidate for the Labour party. If they bear out it will be one to watch. Labour heading in a better direction perhaps?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...labour-leader/

I have a horrible feeling that she's too honest...

in the way the Jezza just couldnt lie.. I think she's struggle too... and it's part of the job sadly.

[Galant]

[rob4001]

I found this channel at least gave an interesting break down on nationalism baring in mind he is pro Conservative nationalist himself